shapechanging lich - gains CON or not?

[thorian]

Do undead, which have no constitution attribute, gain a con attribute if they shapechange into a creature with a con score?

An example is a lich shapechanging into a titan and gaining a con score of 39, and consequently +14 HP per HD.

 

[Sejs]

When you shapechange you take on the assumed form's type, so yeah - turning into something other than undead (or a construct) means you would take on the form's Con score, as well as the various vulnerabilities of the living for as long as you were in said form.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

But since in 3.5 you also seem to get the HP based on your new form´s constitution, a Lich might really win out while shapechanging. (d12 HD + the consitution of a Troll or Dragon?)

 

[Majere]

You change type
You get the new con score
The con score affects you HP.

The lich wins out big time as per hp
The lich loses all the undead tyype traits, such as immunity to negative energy, immunity to stat damage, immunity to poison, immunity to critical hits, immunity to illuions and phantasms.

Its a 9th level spell, it should be good for something, but undead is one of the better types, thats why you become a lich in the first place

Majere

 

[thorian]

And for the reverse, when a human wizard shapechanges into an undead, like a wight for instance, would he gain a CON of -- or not gain the wights CON since there isn't one to gain. And, consequently, if he gained a CON of --, then it seems he would lose his CON modifier to his HP (whether positive or negative).

 

[Sejs]

Right, human to undead would get a con of --, and therefor lose any con mod to HP that he had previously.


Not so hot a deal as the one the lich gets.

 

[delkain]

It's gross now actually with the addition of Monster Manual 3.

Picture this
4th level Lich/12th level Wizard (16th level Character)

Mirror Image
Displacement
Shield
Polymorph (Form of War Troll from MM3)
Tensers Transformation

And a decent 2-handed weapon

War Troll has a Str 31 Dex 16 and Con 29, and +14 natural armor, Size Large, and 10' reach.

With tensers up this becomes Str 35, Dex 20, Con 33, +18 natural armor if you have no devices enhancing these stats further.

Some totals

+24 to hit before weapon bonuses compared to my +6 BAB normally.
+132 hit points for con gain for a wizard doesn't suck.
AC 37 before armor and deflection bonuses (obviously more if you have Mage armor or my favorite Robe of the Archmagi and rings of Protection)
+18 str damage with 2 handed weapon
DR 10/adamantine from StoneSkin
50% miss chance from Displacement
Displaced Mirror Images to help prevent targetted effects.


There is some prep time (I have extend spell to help with this somewhat), but it's great for BBEG's, and while a straight wizard can use this tactic, the HP's from 12's really make the difference max 48 for a 12 level wizard, max 64 for a 16th level wizard compared to max 144 for a 12 level lich wizard. (My current total is 97hp) And if the lich dies he just reforms later. I am also not geared to enter combat all the time so I do not have armor or any fighter type feats. In hindsight I should have tried to go the Eldritch Knight route to maximize the effectiveness of this tactic.

 

[Sejs]

You know, thinking about it... there may be one drawback to the whole shapechanging lich proposal.

Namely, when you're in another form, you don't have access to your own form's benefits. Like.. say.. the whole lich "ha ha, I can't die, neener neener" thing. You revert back to your normal form when you die, but at that point... well, you're already dead.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

It's gross now actually with the addition of Monster Manual 3.

Picture this
4th level Lich/12th level Wizard (16th level Character)

Doesn't a lich have a LA of 4 and if you take 4 levels of a lich class(I assume in MM3, your equivelent to a level 20 guy. Me I'd rather be a level 20 wizard.

And heck if your just refering to the LA I'd just rather be a 16th level wizard than a 12th level wizard lich. Especially considering how much it costs to become a lich so much so that a 12th level wizard would be in debt big time if he tried to become a lich. Heck even if the lich transformation was free I'd rather be a 16th level wizard than a 12th level wizard lich. Sure there are lots of benefits to being a lich but 4 levels not a chance in heck. Quite frankly with the cost of 120,000 and 4,800 xp, the LA of lich should be maybe 1-2. Sorry for the OT rant.

 

[Lorillomar]

You know, thinking about it... there may be one drawback to the whole shapechanging lich proposal.

Namely, when you're in another form, you don't have access to your own form's benefits. Like.. say.. the whole lich "ha ha, I can't die, neener neener" thing. You revert back to your normal form when you die, but at that point... well, you're already dead.

Being the DM involved with this Lich, I will tell you that by my way of thinking, the Lich's Phylactery is the wildcard in the equation. It is not affected by the Polymorph nor by a Shapechange, and it is IT which houses the soul of the Lich. Therefore, it is the Phylactery which causes him to return to life after dying.

I looked at the template and decided to make a few changes, so it would be more attractive to the player without changing the power level of the template:

1. I kept it as a ECL +4 template, but I split it up over 4 levels, so that it would not hit so hard so fast. If anyone wants a copy of the template class, send me an e-mail.
2. I decided that DR 15/Magic and Bludgeoning was too powerful, roughly on a level with a Pit Fiend or Balor. I backed it down to 10/M and B.
3. On the other hand, +2 to Int, Wis and Cha was too little of an enticement for 4 levels of a spellcasting class, so I raised them to +4 for each.
4. Lastly, instead of it taking 1d10 days for the Lich to reappear after death, I put it as a stock 24 hours. At the end of 24 hours, the Lich reappears in the square adjacent to the phylactery, or the next closest one that it can find. However, the Lich is under the effect of two (or was it three? I need to check my notes) Negative Levels as soon as he reappears. Each 24 hours after he reappears, one negative level disappears. If he dies again during this time, the negative levels stack.

Being a lich has already saved this character 50,000gp in True Res costs, so the GP value pays for itself pretty quickly if you tend to die a lot, as this party does. And he will never die again from suffocation inside a Portable Hole, as the entire party has done already.

Lastly, I don't mind the apparent high power level of a souped-up lich as a combat juggernaut. It takes him 4-5 rounds to enter each combat, and one targeted greater dispel will turn him into Mister Wizard all over again.