Shapeshift druid vs regular druid

[Plane Sailing]

4) Important Animal (and later plant/elemental) traits should be available, like special movement modes and water breathing. (I am not so adamant on gaining types or subtypes - Mindless as a plant doesn't make sense for a Druid that clearly has a mind, I think, but immune to criticals in elemental form is fine with me )

Strangely the standard Wildshape into elemental form *doesn't* give the elemental type and immunity to criticals while the shapeshift does.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I really like the idea of shapeshift, and I don't have much problem with the implementation. I have a druid who is 10th level at the moment and I think the two things that I would miss are

1) natural spell/casting while flying. This keeps me out of the way of lots of melee baddies. Presumaly the Call Lightning trick still works though.

2) the free healing when you change form back - always useful.

In addition, my point-buy druid has 10's in Str/Con/Dex because there was no reason not to with Wildshape... she would probably be built slightly differently as a shapeshifter.

I think it would be improved with the following changes:

a) Str bonus is an unnamed bonus, not an enhancement bonus.
b) A water breathing aquatic form with a swim speed (perhaps at the same time as the flyer?)
c) A tiny form for spying at an appropriate point too.

Cheers

 

[Aikuchi]

Hmm, if flying was seen as a 'utlity' form then perhaps a aquatic form at the same level would do just as well. But should it be the second form granted at that level (gasp!) or merely a choice (oer!) ?

 

[Staffan]

2. The retention of the animal companion. (but as easily can be done without).

I believe the animal companion is a cost because shapeshift is allowed from level 1. Level 1 shapeshifting plus animal companions would make the shapeshift druid strictly more powerful from level 1 through level 4.

I could, however, see a rule about a shapeshift druid getting an animal companion at 5th level, with an effective level of level-4. Sort of like a ranger.

 

[Cactot]

I believe the animal companion is a cost because shapeshift is allowed from level 1. Level 1 shapeshifting plus animal companions would make the shapeshift druid strictly more powerful from level 1 through level 4.

I could, however, see a rule about a shapeshift druid getting an animal companion at 5th level, with an effective level of level-4. Sort of like a ranger.

I question your assertion that the shapeshifting druid is strictly more powerful than a non-shapeshifting druid of the same level in any significant fashion. There is a bigger difference due to the stat allocation then there is due to the inherent benefits of the shapeshifting ability.

Lets look at how much more powerful is the shapeshift variant than a standard druid w/o any wildshape or shapeshift at lvl 1, 4, and 7, going with wealth by level guidelines.
You get +4 str, and +4 natural armor, with a 1d6 dmg attack.

Lets assume you have 10str/dex/con, hide armor, a club, and a heavy wooden shield
Shapeshift:
+2 atk
14ac
1d6+2 dmg

Non-Shapeshift w/ shillelagh:
+1atk
15ac
2d6+1 dmg

Non-shapeshift w/o shillelagh:
+0atk
15ac
1d6dmg

its not really going to get any better until lvl 8 for the shapeshift druid:

By 4th level: (5400gp, dragonhide full plate + 1 (4300gp) (9ac), heavy wooden shield +1 (1100gp)(3ac))
Shapeshift:
+5atk
14ac
1d6+2dmg

w/o shapeshift: (brambles, shillelagh, barkskin)
+4atk
24ac
2d6+5dmg

w/o shapeshift: no buffs
+3atk
22ac
1d6dmg

By lvl 7: (13,600 gp more than lvl 4, shocking club +1 (8100gp), ring of protection +1 (2000gp), 3500gp left over)
Shapeshift:
+7atk
14ac
1d6+2dmg

w/o shapeshift: (shillelagh, spikes (all day long), barkskin, bulls strength)
+9 atk
26ac
2d6 + 8dmg +1d6

w/o shapeshift: no buffs:
+6atk
23ac
1d6 +1 +1d6

P.S. If you dont like the dragonhide plate, just get leafweave banded or bp instead and drop the ac by 2 or 3, doesnt make a huge diff in the end.

If they manage to get proficiency with a great club, the damage ramps up to 3d8+8dmg, in which case they could do fully 3x the damage of their shapeshifted friend. So basically aver about 3rd level, it turns into a form that is primarily used for running away. I do not really think that +1atk, +1dmg -1ac at first level is really worth taking the animal companion away, especially when by level 4 your base form is significantly more powerful than your shapeshifted form...

 

[iceifur]

How would it affect balance, I wonder, to go all out with the Shapeshifting conversion? I mean this: change BAB to that of the Fighter, gain Simple Weapons proficiency, drop spellcasting ability, swap Spellcraft for Intimidate, and regain the animal companion (minus the Share Spells ability). To prevent casual dipping, start the Shapeshift ability at lvl 3 instead of lvl 1.

What you're left with is a d8 HD mid-line, mid-armored warrior with flavorful nature-related abilities. The animal companion gives you a nice bonus (setting up flanking situations and so on). If you wanted to boost the class a bit more, you could: A) drop the armor proficiency and grant the Monk's unarmored AC bonus (including Wisdom to AC); and/or B) grant the Paladin's Lay on Hands ability (restricted to self and animals only); and/or C) make the Strength/saves increase from your Shapeshift forms into untyped bonuses.

As an end-cap to the class, an incentive to hit lvl 20, throw in a special ability similar to the Monk's Perfect Self: gain DR 10/magic and your type becomes Outsider (native, shapechanger), or even DR 10/silver and type becomes Magical Beast (shapechanger).

---

Personally, I like what they tried to do with the Shapeshift ability. IMHO, though, the restrictions they put in place (no animal companion, no spellcasting in the forms -- period, and making the stat and save bonuses from the forms into Enhancement bonuses) borked the usefulness of the ability for a full caster. As it stands, I don't believe Shapeshift is an acceptable replacement for the versatility of Wild Shape to the spellcasting Druid. Remove the spellcasting, though...

 

[ForceUser]

Personally, I like what they tried to do with the Shapeshift ability. IMHO, though, the restrictions they put in place (no animal companion, no spellcasting in the forms -- period, and making the stat and save bonuses from the forms into Enhancement bonuses) borked the usefulness of the ability for a full caster.

Did you miss that it's a swift action to shift back and forth? As long as it's a swift action, there's no loss of spellcasting ability for the character--he just can't do it in animal form. I really don't see the problem, unless you want to be the distantly flying nuking druid, in which case, I don't really have any sympathy.

 

[Plane Sailing]

unless you want to be the distantly flying nuking druid, in which case, I don't really have any sympathy.

Hey, distantly flying nuking druids need love too!

 

[iceifur]

Did you miss that it's a swift action to shift back and forth? As long as it's a swift action, there's no loss of spellcasting ability for the character--he just can't do it in animal form. I really don't see the problem, unless you want to be the distantly flying nuking druid, in which case, I don't really have any sympathy.

Nope, didn't miss it. The problem is, since Shapeshift is a swift action, you can't cast any Quickened spells in the same round that you Shapeshift. Insult to injury, I say.

 

[Urbanmech]

I'm the player of the druid in ForceUsers game. I really like Shapeshift. I think a lot of the naysayers are over looking that you gain a +1 per 4 lvs bonus to hit and damage and can go through DR/Magic at 4th lv. That is like casting 3 Greater Magic Weapon spells on yourself at lvs 8+. Plus you don't have to take Natural Spell at 6th lv, freeing up a feat. Shifting as a swift action is also very nifty and adds a lot of mobility to the druid, you can still do the flying nuking guy if you want to, you just need to depend on Air Walk or other magical means of flying.

The bonus to Strength being an enhancement bonus is a good thing, stacking unnamed bonuses is one place where D&D characters get crazy. You are still able to boost your Dex and Con scores through magic. Barkskin still works great for increasing your AC, in most cases a Shapeshift druid will have a higher Natural AC bonus than a Wildshape druid.

Shapeshift does not make the druid any more MAD than a cleric. A cleric wants Str, Con, Wis, Cha, the shapeshift druid wants Str, Dex, Con, Wis. Shapeshift stops druids from using all physical stats as dump stats. Which I alwasy though was fairly silly since most characters would have a rough time getting to lv 5 with 10's in Str, Dex, and Con.

Shapeshift does have some shortcommings though. It currently has less utility forms than wildshape. The addition of a swimming, burrowing, or tiny/small form would be quite nice or maybe a choice between the two or make them available via feats. Allowing Wild armor and Wildling clasps to work would go a long way to making the class actually have a use for some magical items. Despite these two things I'm pretty pleased with the way things have worked out, I'm sure Bjarne would be quite different if he were a druid rather than a druid/natures warrior.