Shemeska, what do you think of the 4e MotP?

[arscott]

Forked from: Sigil Ciy of Doors (Topology of a Torus) - MATHS

Start the thread and I'll share my thoughts. They won't be nearly as acerbic (if at all) as some might expect given my general 4e feelings however.

The above quote is in reference to your namesake switching from an Arcanoloth to a Raavasta, but I'm interested in your overall thoughts, too.

 

[Shemeska]

The above quote is in reference to your namesake switching from an Arcanoloth to a Raavasta, but I'm interested in your overall thoughts, too.

The Raavasta is pretty cool as a monster, and it's a mixture of wierd and interesting the implied link between them and rakshasas. Yet I'm perplexed at the way WotC is handling the 'loths in general. Mezzoloths are turned into mezzodemons and plunked into the Abyss, but Canoloths retained the "schismatic 'loth" in their name, and then arcanoloths change species entirely. However the arcanoloths seem to have survived the 4e transition better than their kindred though, because new name aside, they're pretty much the exact same monster (I barely looked at the stats mind you, so I can't give much opinion there).

Still, I don't know why WotC scattered the 'loths rather than reinvision them as a cohesive whole to fit their new assumed setting in 4e.

And here's a copy of some impressions on the MotP as a whole I posted over on another thread. Nothing new to really add at the moment, since I haven't gone back to the 4e MotP since then (I didn't buy a copy).

Having finally seen the book myself, a few first impressions:

1) The massive amount of blank white space in the layout of the book is annoying to no end.

2) The ravaasta picture is just damn cool. And so is its writeup as a reimagined monster. It's not the same arcanaloth, but then again it's not the same cosmology, so outside of any preconceptions carried over from the original, it's a spiffy monster.

3) The planes vary from decent to very well written. I could tell which sections Rob Schwalb worked on, because I liked them best as far as themes and general elements I like that he has a tendency to include.

4) It's not a bad book. But it's very clear that my idea of and favored design approach to the planes is often antithetical to the design stance the 4e writing team used in working on the book, and in making their favored changes upon concepts that they converted over from the Great Wheel cosmology.

5) The artwork is a very mixed bag for me. Some pictures are just spectacular (the ravaasta, Dispater, etc) and others look amateurish (grazzt and the maralith). And then there's the fact that they continued the 4e trend of recycling 3.5 artwork. In just the first look, I found artwork that originally appeared in the 3.x books Sandstorm and Lost Empires of Faerun. It's jarring and tacky, and I have to wonder why WotC has been continually doing this, especially since they're putting books out in a more selective manner at the moment. It's their time to showcase their best work and emphasize a style for 4e, and I find myself going, "Nice art. I rather liked it the first time I saw it, several years ago when it was illustrating something else entirely. Now it's just jarring to see it crop up again with the serial numbers filed off."

 

[Kunimatyu]

I liked the raavasta in MotP quite a bit - in many ways it actually works better as a standalone from the other yugoloths, given that it's not an insectoid horror.

The mechanics are good -- the rakshasa wishes it had manipulative combat powers that fun!

It's really weird how canoloths still have that bit in their name, while mezzoloths got converted back into mezzod(a)emons.

I still don't entirely understand why the 'loths couldn't be from one of the other Astral dominions, or be fiends of the Shadowfell. Lord knows they'd be better at it than the friggin' Sorrowsworn or whatever...

 

[Shemeska]

I still don't entirely understand why the 'loths couldn't be from one of the other Astral dominions, or be fiends of the Shadowfell. Lord knows they'd be better at it than the friggin' Sorrowsworn or whatever...

Since nominally in 4e alignment doesn't matter, I see little reason why the 'loths couldn't be another set of fiends from a distinct Astral Domain. And barring that, I would have either had them as warped natives of the Shadowfell, or a wandering race of fiends of questionable origin and opaque motives, always tinkering and meddling, and possibly not even knowing their own origin.

But with the treatment of the 'loths in 4e, I remember back in the year prior to 4e being announced that Andy Collins had asked on the forums on his website how people would describe the 'loths. I wrote quite a bit in response. At the time I figured it was for a possible FC:III, but it might have been an attempt to garner insight into the 'loths as they had been, for when they were still planning on what to do with them in 4e. Of course I don't think any of the stuff I or others detailed therein has anything much in common with what they actually did end up doing to them in 4e.

 

[Jack99]

Seems like a very objective opinion.

How much of Pathfinder's version of MotP did you write btw?

 

[arscott]

The Raavasta is pretty cool as a monster, and it's a mixture of wierd and interesting the implied link between them and rakshasas.

Rakshasas were from Acheron in previous editions, right? That always seemed too cerebral to be from the plane embodying battle.

 

[Shemeska]

How much of Pathfinder's version of MotP did you write btw?

The whole thing. My first solo project.

 

[Shemeska]

Rakshasas were from Acheron in previous editions, right? That always seemed too cerebral to be from the plane embodying battle.

At least in 2e they were linked to native status in Acheron. 1e didn't touch the topic to my knowledge, and 3e didn't particularly approach it either. 3.5 was mixed between Dragon detailing their racial deity Ravanna in Acheron, and then WotC for reasons I can't fathom making them mortals by changing them into native outsiders. I strongly suspect someone confused the difference between an outsider native to the material plane and a native outsider. The latter having body-soul duality, being mortal, having to eat, sleep, breath, etc. Strikes me as bizarre for a true fiend.

 

[Jack99]

The whole thing. My first solo project.

Very nice. I will not ever play 3.x again, but consider it pre-ordered now. Your love and knowledge of the planes is evident and I can't wait to see your take on it.

 

[Shemeska]

Very nice. I will not ever play 3.x again, but consider it pre-ordered now.

Well I hope to have it live up to expectations. It's pretty light on the crunch side of things, so even if you're not using 3.x, the concepts should be fairly easy to transfer over to another system.

And once it's out, I'll happily take any comments or critique on it, even criticism since it'll help me improve.