Shemeska, what do you think of the 4e MotP?

[I'm A Banana]

I think the Rakshasa change was Eberron-inspired. In Eberron, they play a big antagonist role from ancient wars, and certainly still traipse around the material plane (along with Coatls, their arch-rivals).

For me, Eberron's rakshasa history seems pretty keen; they didn't have much of a good story up until then. I think WotC probably agreed and Eberron's dark masters became sort of the D&D default, since no one had many better ideas.

 

[Dragonbait]

I think the Rakshasa change was Eberron-inspired. In Eberron, they play a big antagonist role from ancient wars, and certainly still traipse around the material plane (along with Coatls, their arch-rivals).

Yes, it's an Eberron influence. Still, the Rahshasa from 4E are described as being immortal demonic souls with shells of flesh. When their body is destroyed, their souls go into hiting (somewhere..) and reform a new shell. So they continue to carry that fiendish aspect and are definitely not "cat people with funky hands" as one of my players described them before he ever actually knew anything about them.

 

[kenmarable]

Throwing out a general question - if, hypothetically, I was considering finally running a 4e campaign, but was thinking of having the groundwork be the old Planescape modules (especially the mega adventures, so broadly an Infinite Staircase, Modron March, Dead Gods, Faction War storyline), would the 4e Manual of the Planes be useful at all?

Obviously I'm going to be re-crunching all of those adventures and using them more as a basic guide than strict "published modules", but I want to keep the original cosmology and Planescape feel. So how useful would you say the 4e MotP would be in that situation? How much of it is "general planar material for 4e" as opposed to "specific 4e cosmology"? How much of it is both easy to fit into the old cosmology as well as unique & interesting enough to warrant it?

I have no problem tweaking and re-fluffing but considering my 4e library is currently nothing, I'm being kinda stingy in figuring out what to purchase to get started.

(Of course, I might forget it and run something else entirely, or my group might still be utterly resistant to 4e... but I figure that if I can run full-theme Planescape in 4e, then it's alright.)

 

[doctorhook]

Throwing out a general question - if, hypothetically, I was considering finally running a 4e campaign, but was thinking of having the groundwork be the old Planescape modules (especially the mega adventures, so broadly an Infinite Staircase, Modron March, Dead Gods, Faction War storyline), would the 4e Manual of the Planes be useful at all?

I'm going to say, "No," mostly because I just finished reading the book, and have basically no idea what any of those things you mentioned are.

Great book, for sure, but perhaps not what you're looking for. (You'll probably need to customize/homebrew most of it for yourself, I think.)

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Pathfinder has a MotP?

Not trying to be naive here (I've read quite a bit of PF stuff), but I didn't know they had their own cosmology (or is it The Great Wheel in a different package)?

WP

 

[kenmarable]

I'm going to say, "No," mostly because I just finished reading the book, and have basically no idea what any of those things you mentioned are.

Great book, for sure, but perhaps not what you're looking for. (You'll probably need to customize/homebrew most of it for yourself, I think.)

They are adventures from the 2nd edition Planescape planar campaign setting (actually the best info on the setting is here).

• Tales from the Infinite Staircase
• The Great Modron March
• Dead Gods
• Faction War

All awesome adventures in the best campaign setting EVAH! Just for those familiar with the old 2e Planescape material and the 4e MotP, I was wondering if I have all of the old, how useful is the new?

If the 4e MotP is mostly new planes and planar locations and not so much "how to run planes in a 4e game", then, yeah, I doubt it would help me much.

 

[Shroomy]

All awesome adventures in the best campaign setting EVAH! Just for those familiar with the old 2e Planescape material and the 4e MotP, I was wondering if I have all of the old, how useful is the new?

If the 4e MotP is mostly new planes and planar locations and not so much "how to run planes in a 4e game", then, yeah, I doubt it would help me much.

Its mostly about the 4e cosmology, though there is a section in the beginning of the book that deals with planar travel, portals, planar traits, mutability, etc. The other section that may interest you are the planar monsters, Paragon Paths, rituals, and magic items at the rear of the book. Truthfully, if you have a DDI account, I would just skip the 4e MoTP unless you want to incorporate some 4e Cosmology (personally, I would, the Feywild and Shadowfell are very cool).

Currently, in the 4e cosmology, there is no infinite staircase or modrons, and I believe the entire Orcus/Tenebrous storyline has been jettisoned (I don't believe it has mentioned in any 4e materials). Sigil still exists and the Faction War did take place.

 

[Shemeska]

Ken,

You already know more than the 4e MotP could provide. The 4e book isn't bad, but you know more about a planar campaign than joe average, and the 4e MotP is exceedingly specific in linking everything, fluff and game mechanics, to the default 4e cosmology (we're even seeing pre-existing campaign settings being altered to fit that model, first FR, next Eberron, and any future settings WotC releases).

The 4e cosmology has no yugoloths, no modrons, no guardinals, no eladrin celestials, no active Blood War (the Abyss and Hell are literally on opposite sides of the cosmos), no Outlands (nor anything covering the same metaphysical territory). The 4e default doesn't express the planes as being manifest expressions of any specific concept or alignment. The Astral sea is sort of a grab bag of astral domains that might as well be big demiplanes since there's no true organizing principle.

The 4e cosmology seems designed from the ground up for ease of casual use and tossing players and DM not used to running such games into the planes. It doesn't have the tone, atmosphere, and themes from 2e Planescape of clashing ideologies and philosophies (though to be fair that's not to say a good DM couldn't make it so). Perhaps summing up the difference between the two ideals of planar games espoused by 2e versus 4e - Belief does not equal power in the 4e cosmology.

You might find something to yoink in the 4e MotP, but knowing you and your background Ken, I don't think that you'll get much mileage out of it to be honest.

 

[Shemeska]

Pathfinder has a MotP?

Not trying to be naive here (I've read quite a bit of PF stuff), but I didn't know they had their own cosmology (or is it The Great Wheel in a different package)?

WP

There's the Pathfinder RPG which is the 3.5 revision, and then there's the Pathfinder campaign setting (Golarion). The setting's cosmology book, The Great Beyond will be out in the spring.

 

[Starsunder]

Ken,

You already know more than the 4e MotP could provide. The 4e book isn't bad, but you know more about a planar campaign than joe average, and the 4e MotP is exceedingly specific in linking everything, fluff and game mechanics, to the default 4e cosmology (we're even seeing pre-existing campaign settings being altered to fit that model, first FR, next Eberron, and any future settings WotC releases).

The 4e cosmology has no yugoloths, no modrons, no guardinals, no eladrin celestials, no active Blood War (the Abyss and Hell are literally on opposite sides of the cosmos), no Outlands (nor anything covering the same metaphysical territory). The 4e default doesn't express the planes as being manifest expressions of any specific concept or alignment. The Astral sea is sort of a grab bag of astral domains that might as well be big demiplanes since there's no true organizing principle.

The 4e cosmology seems designed from the ground up for ease of casual use and tossing players and DM not used to running such games into the planes. It doesn't have the tone, atmosphere, and themes from 2e Planescape of clashing ideologies and philosophies (though to be fair that's not to say a good DM couldn't make it so). Perhaps summing up the difference between the two ideals of planar games espoused by 2e versus 4e - Belief does not equal power in the 4e cosmology.

You might find something to yoink in the 4e MotP, but knowing you and your background Ken, I don't think that you'll get much mileage out of it to be honest.

I miss this aspect alot in the 4th Ed. cosmology.

As a side note Shemeska, have you seen my thread on blending cosmology's? I'd be interested in hearing your take on it or any advice you could give.

And I'd also like to know what type of cosmology Pathfinder uses. Although im running 4th Ed., I have a love of the planes and look for good material anywhere, regardless of edition.