Shield Bashing PC Questions

[DrSpunj]

I'm kicking around a couple different character concepts (since my Dog Riding Halfling Paladin may have just bought it in a near TPK at the end of last session). One of these is a Shield Bashing PC, probably a Half-Orc Fighter with Shield Spikes. I've been reading a few of the threads running in the last few days that touch on this subject (including several of smetzger's polls, thanks smetzger! ) and I want some help verifying my thinking.

Here's the SRD section on Shield Bashing and Shield Spikes:

Shield Bash Attacks: An opponent can be bashed with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. A Medium-size character deals 1d4 points of damage (X2 crit) with a large shield or 1d3 (X2 crit) with a small one. (The tower shield cannot be used to perform the bash action.) A Small character deals 1d3 points of damage (X2 crit) with a large shield or 1d2 (X2 crit) with a small one. Used this way, the shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For purposes of attack penalties, treat a shield as a light weapon. If the shield is used as a weapon, lose its AC bonus until the character's next action (usually until the next round).

Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon that deals 1d6 points of damage (X2 crit) no matter whether the shield is small or large. Buckler or tower shields cannot have shield spikes.

Now then, the "using it as an off-hand weapon" part implies to me that the penalties usually offset by Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting would kick in here if I used a full attack action to use both my primary weapon and the shield bash, right?

If I choose to only make a Shield Bash attack (and forego any attack from my primary weapon) does the off-hand part just imply that I'll only be able to apply 1/2 my StrMod bonus to the bash damage but there is no effect on my attack roll?

If I've got that correct, then it may or may not be worth it to take Ambi/2WF (and I'm hoping 2-weapon fighting is tweaked somehow in 3.5E). Any opinions here? Especially from those that have played a Shield Bashing PC before...

Shield Expert is in there ASAP, though if I did go with Ambi/2WF I'd probably wait to take it with my third feat (or ASAP if it's not a Bonus Fighter Feat).

Any opinions on other feats that would work well here? Power Attack maybe. Not sure about Improved Shield Bash or Shield Charge. I'm not interested in Divine Shield because I don't want to play a Paladin since that's what my current Halfling PC is.

Thanks in advance.

DrSpunj

BTW: We're using DMG point-buy with 36 pts. How would you set up the stats?

 

[DanMcS]

Now then, the "using it as an off-hand weapon" part implies to me that the penalties usually offset by Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting would kick in here if I used a full attack action to use both my primary weapon and the shield bash, right?

Yes

If I choose to only make a Shield Bash attack (and forego any attack from my primary weapon) does the off-hand part just imply that I'll only be able to apply 1/2 my StrMod bonus to the bash damage but there is no effect on my attack roll?

Well, technically, there aren't any rules for handedness in 3e, though many people assume them. So if you use the shield as your primary attack, you could get full str with it. I've actually thought of playing a shield-knife fighter, who has the knife as his offhand weapon.

Any opinions on other feats that would work well here? Power Attack maybe. Not sure about Improved Shield Bash or Shield Charge. I'm not interested in Divine Shield because I don't want to play a Paladin since that's what my current Halfling PC is.

Improved Bull Rush might fit in with that character.

 

[DrSpunj]

Re: Re: Shield Bashing PC Questions

Well, technically, there aren't any rules for handedness in 3e, though many people assume them. So if you use the shield as your primary attack, you could get full str with it. I've actually thought of playing a shield-knife fighter, who has the knife as his offhand weapon.

That's an interesting thought. Are there any rules or clarifications anywhere that says using a shield-bash in your primary hand, as your primary method of attack, is legal? I ask because the Shield Bash section I quoted from the SRD above specifically states in the first line that it is "an off-hand weapon".

I should check the FAQ...

DrSpunj

 

[DanMcS]

Why would there have to be some 'official' nonsense saying it's legal? Especially since there are no rules on handedness. If you can hold it in one hand and use it as a weapon, it doesn't matter what hand it is. People are obsessed with 'official'.

The shield bash bit says you can use it as a light off-hand weapon because technically, a shield wouldn't be light for most PCs. That's the point of the clarification.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's also worth noting that Shield Expert doesn't let you keep the AC bonus if you use the shield as your primary attack.

The feat only lets you keep the AC bonus in the same round that you make an off-hand attack with the shield.

-Hyp.

 

[DrSpunj]

It's also worth noting that Shield Expert doesn't let you keep the AC bonus if you use the shield as your primary attack.

The feat only lets you keep the AC bonus in the same round that you make an off-hand attack with the shield.

Ah! That's very important. Thank you!

But now I'm getting a little tripped up on the use of "primary" and "off hand". Can I make an off-hand attack as my only attack in the round? Or is my single attack always a "primary" attack, regardless of which hand I'm holding the shield in?

Sorry to be really dense about this. I'm mostly just trying to figure out if I really need Ambi and 2WF to make an effective Shield Bashing PC or not.

DrSpunj

 

[Hypersmurf]

An off-hand attack is only ever made when you're attacking with both hands in the same round, as part of a full attack action.

One weapon is designated your primary weapon, and the other makes off-hand attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[DanMcS]

Or is my single attack always a "primary" attack, regardless of which hand I'm holding the shield in?

Yes.

Sorry to be really dense about this. I'm mostly just trying to figure out if I really need Ambi and 2WF to make an effective Shield Bashing PC or not.

You're not going to be able to make a primary shield basher as effective as a more regular fighting type, pretty much no matter what you do. He'll lose his shield AC bonus if he attacks with it, it's hard to find shields enchanted for attacking , shields do less damage than the sword game designers love so much, etc. Unless you can talk your DM into an exotic wpn proficiency to deal 1d8 with your shield...

Maybe if you made him with a shield on each arm, hmm.

 

[Dingleberry]

Re: Re: Shield Bashing PC Questions

Well, technically, there aren't any rules for handedness in 3e, though many people assume them.

IIRC, the "Normal" section of the Ambidexterity feat spells out the penalties for using your off-hand, and I don't think they're limited to two weapon fighting.

 

[DanMcS]

Re: Re: Re: Shield Bashing PC Questions

IIRC, the "Normal" section of the Ambidexterity feat spells out the penalties for using your off-hand, and I don't think they're limited to two weapon fighting.

Hmmph, you're right. I must have been thinking of the modern rules (/weasel). Though to further muddle things, 3.5 will probably use the d20modern version of two-weapon and offhand fighting.