Shield Bashing PC Questions

[DrSpunj]

An off-hand attack is only ever made when you're attacking with both hands in the same round, as part of a full attack action.

One weapon is designated your primary weapon, and the other makes off-hand attacks.

Okay, so let me see if I have this straight.

Assume I'm a 3rd level Fighter using a longsword and a spiked shield, and I have the Shield Expert feat.

I can use either my longsword OR my spiked shield to make my single attack. Using the spiked shield will forego its AC bonus until my next turn since Shield Expert only applies to off-hand shield attacks (and since I'm only making one attack the shield has become my primary weapon), but I will get to use my full Str bonus on damage since it's my primary weapon.

-OR-

I could use a full attack action to attack with both my longsword (primary) and my spiked shield (off-hand) and would keep the AC bonus thanks to Shield Expert. However, without Ambi/2WF I'd incur the standard Two-Weapon Fighting penalties.

Is that right?

Thanks for trying to help me out!

DrSpunj

 

[Hypersmurf]

That was my understanding... however...

... Dingleberry's note about the text of the Ambidexterity feat has shaken my confidence somewhat

It looks like perhaps in the case of a single attack with your left hand, then either:

A/ without Ambidexterity, you're making an off-hand attack; you keep your AC bonus from Shield Expert, but suffer a -4 attack penalty and 1/2 Str Bonus to damage,

or
B/ with Ambidexterity, you're not making an off-hand attack; you suffer no penalty to attack or Str bonus, but you don't get the AC bonus from Shield Expert

-Hyp.

 

[Skullfyre]

Yes.



You're not going to be able to make a primary shield basher as effective as a more regular fighting type, pretty much no matter what you do. He'll lose his shield AC bonus if he attacks with it, it's hard to find shields enchanted for attacking , shields do less damage than the sword game designers love so much, etc. Unless you can talk your DM into an exotic wpn proficiency to deal 1d8 with your shield...

Maybe if you made him with a shield on each arm, hmm.

Shields of Bashing pg 181 DMG

*pointing* "Look it is Captain Orc"

 

[DrSpunj]

Well...

That was my understanding... however...

... Dingleberry's note about the text of the Ambidexterity feat has shaken my confidence somewhat

It looks like perhaps in the case of a single attack with your left hand, then either:

A/ without Ambidexterity, you're making an off-hand attack; you keep your AC bonus from Shield Expert, but suffer a -4 attack penalty and 1/2 Str Bonus to damage,

or

B/ with Ambidexterity, you're not making an off-hand attack; you suffer no penalty to attack or Str bonus, but you don't get the AC bonus from Shield Expert

At least now I know why I'm confused!

DanMcS's comment about 2WF in d20 Modern prompted me to skip over the d20 Modern SRD and check out the relevant Combat section. Here's the 2WF table from there:

Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties
Circumstances...................Primary Hand.......Off Hand
Normal penalties......................–6...................–10
Off-hand weapon is light...........–4....................–8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat........–4....................–4
Off-hand weapon is light &........–2....................–2
Two-Weapon Fighting feat

I have to say I like this version a lot better, and I hope that 3.5E goes with it. Ambidexterity is dropped entirely, and 2WF is now a good, single feat that allows a 2WF style concept.

Anyway, if this is what is used in 3.5E then what I outlined in my last post would seem to make sense. If Ambidexterity sticks around then the concept I'm looking for pretty much requires both Ambi and 2WF. And I'm not sure it's worth the cost, honestly.

Thanks for the help all!

 

[reichtfeld]

d20 Modern rules and whether they'll be incorporated in 3.5e aside, here's where things stand by my interpretation:

Shield bash attacks can be made by using the shield as an off-hand weapon.

Shield expert lets you retain a shield's AC bonus when the shield is used in an off-hand attack.

Ambidexterity ignores all penalties for using an off hand. From the reading of Ambidexterity, that means handedness and primary/secondary attacks have no relation in and of themselves as Hypersmurf earlier suggested. Granted, it would take extraordinary circumstances for anyone to willingly make a primary attack with their off hand outside of shield bashing. For example, your primary hand might be broken or stuck in a trap so you have to use your off hand. I think the S&F authors gave a nod to The Princess Bride by making Ambidexterity a requirement for duelist. "I'm not really left-handed."

Without Ambidexterity, making a shield bash as your primary attack will suffer a -4 penalty and you can only add 1/2 your Strength modifier to damage. With Ambidexterity, the attack suffers no penalty and can enjoy the benefit of your full Strength modifier to damage.

I wonder if all those people boasting about the Divine Shield smackdown that Paladins can do take this into account. Because without investing in a 15 Dex and taking Ambidexterity, their shield bashes would be made with a -4 to the attack roll and with 1/2 Str mod to damage. With 25 pt-buy stats that 15 Dex is a huge investment for any character, but even moreso for a Paladin. And even with higher pt-buy or rolled stats, that's a precious feat slot.

A Fighter wanting to focus in shield bashing has it a lot better off. Dump into Strength, take 15 Dex and Ambidexterity, and have loads of fun with Shield Expert, Power Attack, Improved Shield Bash, and Shield Charge. If you're a human, you are rocking and rolling as early as third level. Other races are rounded out for shield pimp action as early as fourth level. For min/max fun take Weapon Focus and then Monkey Grip with a polearm so that you can also threaten at 10 ft.

One thing I am a bit confused about are the mechanics of Improved Shield Bash. From how I read it, the utility of this feat is that you might be able to knock a creature 5 feet away so that when you take a 5 foot step away from the enemy they are then only allowed to attack by moving forward or charging, unless they have reach of course. The text of the feat says that "any shield bash" you take acts as a bull rush, but would it be logical to state that the player can opt not to exercise that option? Because what if you have multiple attacks and knock them back with the first? If I had a character with this feat then I'd save that for my second attack unless it had no good chance to hit. If using the Monkey Grip a polearm tactic vs. an opponent without reach this could get pretty cool. Shield bash, 5 ft. step away, and take your AoO with the polearm if/when they close to attack on their turn. Wash, rinse, repeat until dead.

My Shield Basher, Human 25 pt-buy
Str 15, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8
Fighter 1: Ambidexterity, Power Attack, Improved Shield Bash
Fighter 2: Shield Charge
Fighter 3: Shield Expert
Fighter 4: Combat Reflexes, +1 Str
Fighter 5:
Fighter 6: Weapon Focus (polearm of choice), Monkey Grip (polearm of choice)

The 4th level feat is open to anything. Weapon Focus (shield) and then Weapon Spec. (shield) later, turning the +2 damage into +4 when charging. Power Lunge could be a nice complement to Shield Charge if you don't mind the AoO. Hold the Line is also an option. Never underestimate the value of Close-Quarters Fighting vs. monsters with Improved Grab. If you dock your Con and take 13 Int you open yourself up for Expertise -> Improved Trip -> Knock-Down, which means those heavy shield hits might knock them 5 feet back and flat on their arse, too. But I figured those feats could wait and chose Combat Reflexes to take full advantage of the polearm's 10 ft. threat range coming up at level 6.

You're not going to be able to make a primary shield basher as effective as a more regular fighting type, pretty much no matter what you do.

Behold the power of cheese, Dan.

 

[reapersaurus]

reichtfeld - that's the approach I was trying to make work, about a year and a half ago.
Shield bashing just doesn't do enough damage unless you get something else in the mix.

That 'something else' is Divine Might and Divine Shield.

Those combined with a Ftr/Clr (not Paladin, unless you want high saves, too) high CHA and Shield Charge is pretty powerful.

Other things to note:
Most people consider the off-hand confusion is just a result of bad wording in the PHB.
Similarly, Improved Shield Bash gives you the choice to use it or not.

 

[reichtfeld]

Granted, a d6 weapon (shield spikes) isn't too terribly impressive for a fighter, but a d8 once you can add the bashing property to your shield brings you up to par. The damage manifests itself through shield charges, and the benefit to such a shield fighter build is the utility more than the damage. I'd invest the points into Con if not going to high levels, but otherwise a 13 Int is a must to pursue Knock-Down. Take your Monkey Grip with a guisarme for +2 ranged trips and Kick Them While They're Down if it's allowed. A fighter that's power attacking with their shield charge and threatening every square in a 10-ft. radius with Knock-Down and Kick Them While They're down becomes a very credible threat by my reckoning. Then there's the cheesy Improved Shield Bash, 5-ft. step away to take an AoO with your polearm tactic if they have to close to attack.

The Divine Might issue is a fiasco in my opinion. I honestly don't know what to make of the Sage's answer on that. Some folks are inclined to ignore it, others take it at face value and say that the Sage decrees Divine Might is a free action and is a freak exception, while others will say that the Sage meant Divine Might doesn't take a standard action in and of itself, but the turning attempt to channel the energy for the feat takes a standard action just as DotF says. If Divine Might takes a standard action in a game then spending two rounds for Divine Might and then Divine Shield is a pretty big sacrifice to make when powering up for an engagement.

For me, deciding on Ftr/Clr or Ftr/Pal would depend on how the DM prefers to handle the two different classes. If they are fine with the no deity, pick-your-domain buffet style then Clr might be the way to go. Spontaneous heals are also a boon. With some styles of gaming and some DMs the associated baggage of priestdom could be a turn-off. On the flip side, paladins shine with the saves and BAB progression, but you wait longer for turning and divine feats. Let us also not forget the Code, which is also dependent on your game's style and atmosphere.

Depending on stat score generation, going the Ftr/Clr or Ftr/Pal can be tricky. You need 15 Dex for Ambidexterity and avoiding that off hand penalty with shield bashing. You are going to need a bit of Wisdom for spells and divine feats. And then you can dump what's left for Charisma. If you can reasonably expect the chance to acquire +Cha items and get your stat bumped to make Divine Might and Divine Shield "worthwhile" by min/max standards then it could be the way to go. But unless you have a gracious DM this is like building your house on mud by my reckoning. Between the story/roleplay complications of divine caster classes, the stat spread, item reliance, DM interpretation on divine feat errata, and having to pick your nose for 2 rounds while powering up I'd rather go fighter. Delaying until after the party's caster in order to gain Haste won't remain [as] viable much longer.

I think a pure Fighter can do well for him or herself without reliance on divine feats. Get a +1 armor enhancement on the shield and then the bashing ability ASAP. From there mix armor and weapon enhancements as the campaign allows for and demands. If you're going to high levels, after having 15 Dex and 13 Int for Ambidexterity and Expertise chain requirements, respectively, you are free to dump into Str and exploit opportunities such as tripping, grappling, disarming, bull rushing, etc. that a Cha-loaded Clr or Pal won't be able to.

And the most absolute important thing to consider is one thing Hypersmurf pointed out on the Divine Shield thread. Does the DM allow Divine Shield to provide enhancement bonuses above +5? If the answer is no, then multiclass isn't even a debate for shield bashing. Shell out the money as a fighter and load up on feats for full exploitation and versatility goodness.