Shield master on twitter

[Mistwell]

"In 5E? No, I don't know of such an ability. Of course I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of the rules so please enlighten me. I know it's not an option for any of the paladin/fighter builds that I know of. The cavalier has unwavering mark but they have to remain within 5 feet of the target of their mark."

Paladin has compelled duel, battlemaster has goading attack... Just two off the top of my head sticking with the d10 guys.

Edit actually just some.. Did not look at ranger who is also a d10 guy.

Hmm this feat plus Goading Attack would make for a sweet combination. A lot has to go right for it to work. Attack has to hit, they have to miss their saving throw, and then you have to succeed with their shove. But, when it works, it would be pretty effective. But...still couldn't work with a dwarf, or someone wearing heavy armor, unless you are willing to accept an opportunity attack that wasn't otherwise going to happen (though it would be at disadvantage at least).

 

[Oofta]

"I was addressing the specific attack/shove/run away scenario. Basically I think it would be extremely rare that it would make sense for the front line tank to kite in and out of combat. There are so few scenarios where the enemy will not be able to attack someone. Which you talk around but never address. "

As already answered, i have not made any advocation or claims about the shove back dwarfy thingy. If you choose to limit yourself to that, why you keep somehow chalkenging me to support it is beyond fathoming.

Shield master and shove down are issues i have addressed.

If you have this personal issue with the intersection of dwarven stubby kegs and shove backs... thats not my problem to solve or weigh in on.

it's worse for dwarves, but it's the same issue with other races. Unless the fighter doing it is the only melee based character, it just means the target will attack someone else.

Yes, there are some limited resources that give disadvantage. I had forgotten about compelled dual because it's not a very good spell. The only one that can attack the target is the paladin, it's concentration, there's a saving throw every round, etc. I've never played a battlemaster and the guy who played one in our group never used it (or only used it once or twice and realized it wasn't worth while).

Like I said. I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules.

But let's leave it at this. We disagree. I think other feats are worth far more for the majority of characters. Shoving and running isn't going to work because there will probably be someone in range for most groups. Yes you could keep them locked down for a round or two using limited resources, but that's all ... a round or two.

 

[5ekyu]

Hmm this feat plus Goading Attack would make for a sweet combination. A lot has to go right for it to work. Attack has to hit, they have to miss their saving throw, and then you have to succeed with their shove. But, when it works, it would be pretty effective. But...still couldn't work with a dwarf, or someone wearing heavy armor, unless you are willing to accept an opportunity attack that wasn't otherwise going to happen (though it would be at disadvantage at least).

Giving someone an OA at disad against the armor and shield guy to deprive them of attack action againt that guy when their turn comes *or* they take disadvantage against others... thats a trade i would usually be happy with.

But again, just one option of many.

Edit.. But can you explain the "or someone wearing heavy armor" reference?

 

[5ekyu]

"it's worse for dwarves, but it's the same issue with other races. Unless the fighter doing it is the only melee based character, it just means the target will attack someone else."

Outside of excel spreadsheets, picking who the enemy attacks when its beneficial is often considered extremely useful.

Last time i checked the same 4 out of 5 dentists thought focusing damage on targets instead of spreading it from round to round on different targets was as good as sugar-less gum.

I think the 5th dentist had excel open but cannot confirm.

As for there being better feats for the majority of characters, of course. That is true of every feat - without exception even before we get to vagaries for tactics and groups and campaigns.

GWM is not good for non-two-handed/hvy (whatever) melee guys, ranged guys or most spellers - a majority.

Sharpshooter - similar

Shield master... Yup...

No feat is best for a majority of the characters - barring a very limited pool of "charscters".





,

 

[Oofta]

"it's worse for dwarves, but it's the same issue with other races. Unless the fighter doing it is the only melee based character, it just means the target will attack someone else."

Outside of excel spreadsheets, picking who the enemy attacks when its beneficial is often considered extremely useful.

Last time i checked the same 4 out of 5 dentists thought focusing damage on targets instead of spreading it from round to round on different targets was as good as sugar-less gum.

I think the 5th dentist had excel open but cannot confirm.

As for there being better feats for the majority of characters, of course. That is true of every feat - without exception even before we get to vagaries for tactics and groups and campaigns.

GWM is not good for non-two-handed/hvy (whatever) melee guys, ranged guys or most spellers - a majority.

Sharpshooter - similar

Shield master... Yup...

No feat is best for a majority of the characters - barring a very limited pool of "charscters".





,

I don't use spreadsheets to plan characters, or justify my opinion. I have explained why your tactics don't work in real world games. Give it a rest.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That's not an actual play example. It's a theorycraft example. It's only an actual play example if you had people who used it in their games.

We have multiple people in this very thread who have played Shield Master PCs for extended lengths of time who say that the other features aren't that useful to them and if they had wanted to play that way (knock back and run) they'd have just played a different PC.

How is taking Shield Master to knock one foe back, maybe, and then moving away a better means of accomplishing this then just being a Rogue or Monk in the first place?

Good for them?

My actual play experience (not sure where you got the impression that my examples are theorycrafting) is that the examples I gave make the feat very useful, and we’ve never rule it the way you guys were.

I’ve also seen the +2 to dex saves on a “low” dex character (never seen dex below 10, so maybe “average” is a better term) save the character many times during 5e’s run, with and without having a reaction to spare on the other effect.

The shove effect allows tactics that normally would require sacrificing damage in order to use, and it has turned the tide of battle at my table, in the uses I mentioned, as well as others. I’ve had characters save others by locking down an enemy that would be willing to risk the opportunity attack to get to the healer or mage, combo shove and difficult terrain to lock an enemy in place while the DPR characters could survive tangling with an enemy glass canon, push an enemy into a dangerous zone, etc.

there isnt anything theoretical about it.

 

[Eric V]

Nerfing this feat this way is a bit of a downer because it was one of the feats for a particular play style for martials, and it no longer keeps up.

Ranged: Sharpshooter
Heavy Weapon: Heavy Weapon Master
Two-Weapons: Dual Wielder
Sword-and-board: Shield Master

The above 3 enhance their respective styles much more than the now-clarified Shield Master feat does, and that's too bad. :/

 

[5ekyu]

Nerfing this feat this way is a bit of a downer because it was one of the feats for a particular play style for martials, and it no longer keeps up.

Ranged: Sharpshooter
Heavy Weapon: Heavy Weapon Master
Two-Weapons: Dual Wielder
Sword-and-board: Shield Master

The above 3 enhance their respective styles much more than the now-clarified Shield Master feat does, and that's too bad. :/

I thibk it actually depends on what you think the sword and board style *is*. The difference between shove before hits and shove after hits is how often the sword and boarder can get their own damage attacks with advantage on their own... I.e. basically DPR.

Some see *higher dpr* as not in the sword and board style...

For those, the style can be more protective in nature, more defensive in nature even to some degree more controlling in nature.

All of those style elements still remain as part of the feat.

Perhaps what the temporary bad ruling did was to turn a defensive style feat into a dpr style feat (with added defense to boot) and that was a mistake, a bug, not a designed intent and verse given and ring of wishes guaranteed right.

 

[Eric V]

Eh, maybe.

Considering the fight is won when the opponent has no hp left though, the role of the martial guy is to lower the opponent's hp, no? In that vein, dpr is important, yes?

The other 3 all add dpr; it was nice that sword-and-board got that option as well.

If one doesn't think that's what S&B *is* then one simply doesn't take the feat, right? I mean, it's a feat, not a class feature.

 

[jaelis]

I would like a feat like this:

Shield Maestro
- When you attack with a shield, you can add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll. A shield is considered an improvised weapon doing 1d4 damage.
- When you are wielding a shield and take the attack action, you can use a bonus action to attack with your shield or to shove an opponent.
- While wielding a shield, if you are subjected to an effect that allows a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can add your shield's AC bonus to your saving throw.