Shifter PrC (MotW) & Epic Feats

[Hand of Vecna]

I had seen where Shifter's don't gain subtypes in a Sage Advice in Dragon, which makes little sense to me as well. I'll see if I can find the WotC thread about this stuff. Thanks!

Oh, and why is it a common ruling to not be able to apply a template to all creatures you can shift into? As long as the Template itself can be applied to a creature, I don't see why not -- if my Shifter's traveled to the Elemental Plane of Fire and stayed there for some time, studying the native creatures there, why shouldn't he be able to from that point on apply the Fire Element Creature template to whatever corporeal animal, beast, magical beast, plant, or vermin he becomes?

Again, thanks for all the speedy & helpful replies!

 

[Caliber]

I think the idea follows along the line of only being able to Shift into creatures that a Shifter has experience with.

For example, a Shifter might know what a Half-Dragon (Black) Ogre is like, from past experience. But in no way does that help him shift into a Half-Dragon (Black) Elf, for example.

While from a game engine point of view, templates are something that could be applied to anything, from the game world they are completely new and often semi-unique creatures.

 

[Veldrane]

I think the idea follows along the line of only being able to Shift into creatures that a Shifter has experience with.

Exactly, that is the "rules purpose" point. On the other hand, there is the balance issue. I played a Shifter for four levels, and, assuming the average number of creature you can shift into, and the big boost a template can give to a creature, being able to minimize or even nullify a creature's weaknesses or limitations is definitely a powerful ability, maybe a problematic one (just think of how many forms have regenerations, and how many templates cover regeneration weaknesses, for instance), so the limitation makes sense..

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Exactly, that is the "rules purpose" point. On the other hand, there is the balance issue. I played a Shifter for four levels, and, assuming the average number of creature you can shift into, and the big boost a template can give to a creature, being able to minimize or even nullify a creature's weaknesses or limitations is definitely a powerful ability, maybe a problematic one (just think of how many forms have regenerations, and how many templates cover regeneration weaknesses, for instance), so the limitation makes sense..

One way to balance that is that a Templated creature also follows the new creature type (from the template). The most obvious example I can think of is the Half-Dragon (Red) or Half-Fiend Troll-- for either total fire immunity, or Fire and Acid Resistance 20.

Both templates change the creature type, so to access this, you don't use Giant Shape-- you have to use Dragon Shape or Outsider Shape-- which, by the time you posess these, you should have better combat forms available.

 

[Veldrane]

One way to balance that is that a Templated creature also follows the new creature type (from the template).

That is the way it is, I don't see it as a balance factor... ...the Half-Dragon Troll you mention has Type: Dragon, so it's obvious you can't access that form if you can shift into Type: Giant.
Nearly every template change the type of the base creature..

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

That is the way it is, I don't see it as a balance factor... ...the Half-Dragon Troll you mention has Type: Dragon, so it's obvious you can't access that form if you can shift into Type: Giant.
Nearly every template change the type of the base creature..

That's the balance factor-- Giant Shape is learned much sooner than Outsider Shape or Dragon Shape.

So, a character that knows Giant Shape can't transform into a Half-Dragon Troll unless they also have access to Dragon Shape.

To be a slightly more effective limit, you could also require that the character be able to shift into both forms-- the base creature type and the creature type of the template.

 

[Veldrane]

That's the balance factor- So, a character that knows Giant Shape can't transform into a Half-Dragon Troll unless they also have access to Dragon Shape.

I understood, I just read what you wrote before as "this is an interpretation of the rules that balance this ability", which I disagree, since that is just what the rules say as written, not an alternative way to balance it.

Back to the topic: having played a Shifter for a while, it's my opinion that, given a DM that allow the right forms, the Shifter can be really powerful compared to non spellcasters at CLVL 10-15, while this advantage ends at levels 15-20. Assuming that, free use of the templates can worsen this fact, so I'd stick with "just creatures you have experience with" that means you cannot mix'n'match templates you saw with creatures you have available. Given that, maybe it would be a good HR to allow mix'n'match of templates as a 10th level Shifter class ability, but that's just an idea, and it would be a HR...

 

[Dwarmaj]

A shifter can shift into templated creatures, but has to be familiar with it. He has to have studied it or fought the creature. So this puts all the power in the DMs hands.

Damage taken prior to turning into a Troll will not be regenerated since it's real damage and regeneration only recovers subduel damage.

The healing on only 9 shifts perday doesn't make much since since at the level a shifter can change into something with fast healing and get their hitpoints back that way.

 

[kigmatzomat]

This past weekend I ran a one-shot epic game where a character (already an Outsider) assumed the form of a Solar.

Just from the EX abilities, an instant +21 natural armor, immune to electricity, petrification attacks, cold and acid, fire resistance 20, low-light vision and 60-foot darkvision not to mention Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20. For epic characters only the strength is that amazing, but since all the gear continued to function it was an incredible power up.

Now stack that onto a Monk20/ PsiWarrior3. The pain, the pain.

Abilities that don't have a "specific" affect like illusions, summons, and shapeshifting all depend on the creativity and previous experiences of the player/character. A good player will keep surprising you while a poor one will be at best a two-trick pony.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Hmm. That makes me wonder-- will they be including Outsiders in Savage Species for the purposes of ECL and "monster classes"?