Shifter Underpowered?

[The Iron Mark]

But a Shifter Sacrifices 10 Caster Levels to change, and a mere spell is better! I still think something must be changed, either Shapechange or the Shifter(so you get the type maybe).

 

[Shard O'Glase]

But a Shifter Sacrifices 10 Caster Levels to change, and a mere spell is better! I still think something must be changed, either Shapechange or the Shifter(so you get the type maybe).

Like I said shifters gain the feats of the creatures they turn into and their attack routines(which is something shapechange doesn't give). Check out the feats of a celestial, and think about how many combat feats that just saved the shifter, and who is a physical combat orriented class.

And if it makes you feel better IMC at least I remove shapechange and a few other spells, until some intrepid player comes up with a version I find acceptable.

 

[EOL]

But a Shifter Sacrifices 10 Caster Levels to change, and a mere spell is better! I still think something must be changed, either Shapechange or the Shifter(so you get the type maybe).

I would change the spell in that event. The biggest difference between a 10th level shifter and a mage with shapechange is that shapechange has a duration of 10 minutes per level (3.33 hours at 20th level) while the shifter can remain in a form forever. That's a significant difference, but I'm starting to feel like 1 minute per level would better for the sake of balance.

 

[The Iron Mark]

I think we're done with this. Why don't we let this die now?

 

[nharwell]

I'll agree that a shifter is "underpowered" compared to a 17th-level spell caster with Shapechange. However, I don't think that the difference is really that significant. Not all class combinations (particularly prestige classes) are equal. The shifter is an interesting "niche" class and I think it works reasonably well as is. The only change I made was to give the shifter all physical abilities of the "type" he or she assumes. Thus in fire elemental form, a shifter gains the abilities of the fire subtype (and thus doesn't burn himself up, which he would as written in MOTW). Likewise, becoming an iron golem makes one immune to critical hits, poison, etc. -- and all non-mental spells (the shifter retains his own mind, and thus doesn't benefit from the construct "type" immunities vs. all spells). I likewise allow him to gain damage reduction from most forms that provide it (once again, he gains DR in the form of an iron golem because he has the hardness of an iron golem).

 

[Oni]

The only change I made was to give the shifter all physical abilities of the "type" he or she assumes. Thus in fire elemental form, a shifter gains the abilities of the fire subtype (and thus doesn't burn himself up, which he would as written in MOTW).

This is an unnecessary change. A shifter gains all the Ex abilities of a creatures it turns into. Subtypes are considered Ex abilities. The fire elemental has the fire subtype.

 

[nharwell]

This is an unnecessary change. A shifter gains all the Ex abilities of a creatures it turns into. Subtypes are considered Ex abilities. The fire elemental has the fire subtype.

Well, MOTW is actually a little more ambiguous on that point. While the shifter does gain extraordinary abilities, he does NOT gain the type -- there is no indication that subtype would be any different. Moreover, MOTW specifically mentions gaining the abilities of the incorporeal subtype of undead as an exception to that rule -- no others are mentioned. I'd say that indicates "no subtypes."

Note: I'm ignoring this rule -- in effect, I'm giving shifters most of the benefits of the type they assume, not just subtype. As written in MOTW, I still have trouble understanding how you can turn into an iron golem but still be as vulnerable as a human to critical hits, sneak attack, poison, etc. This goes a long way towards balancing the shifter, IMHO.

 

[Oni]

I apologize, I was not very clear in what I meant, I had intended to refute the fire elemental example only. A shifter, by the rules now, would not destroy themselves by becoming one, the fire and cold subtypes are ex abilities, if you look under the fire elemental's entry in the MM it clearly labels it as such, meaning a shifter could use the ability.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

By the way I just thought of a sick trick for a shifter minimum level 12 that a wizard could not do because he doesn't gain the attack routines, while a shifter with wildshape does. Laernian Pryo Hydra, have your friends chop off your heads, let them regrow so you now have 24 heads. According to the rules a hydra can attack with all heads even if they move or charge. 24 attacks doing 1d10+6 after a full move, with a special verison of combat reflexes giving you 24 AoO a round and you got a good reach on that huge body. Think about that 24-48 attacks a round bwahahahah. (pyro hydra you wont gain the breath weapon since those are supernatural, but you will gain type fire, which means the only way you can die is if all 24 heads are severed, and acid is applied to the wound before a head grows back.

 

[Oni]

they hydra's ability to regrow heads isn't listed as Ex so I don't think that would be something that the shifter would have access to.