Shifting when not adjacent?
- Thread starter Khime
- Start date
Goumindong
First Post
It doesn't have to. The teleportation rules are just as much exceptions as the shifting rules. PG is just as much an exception.
Goumindong
First Post
Which means there is a situation in which a person with polearm gamble can make an OA against a person teleporting. That person must be in a non-adjacent square within reach and teleporting to an adjacent square.
Oompa
First Post
How can you interrupt something you cannot see? Who isnt there?
Teleport isnt going invis and walking, no it is *poof* and then suddenly he is somewhere else..
Master Witch
First Post
Ok let me get the gist of this argument. We are looking at shift in relation to Polearm gambit and opportunity attacks. The following information from the book is what seem to be the facts to back up all points of view I think.
Specific Beats General (page 11 PH)
OPPORTUNITY ATTACK: OPPORTUNITY ACTION (page 290 PH)
SHIFT: MOVE ACTION (page 292 PH)
Polearm Gamble (page 204 PH)
Reach: (page 217 PH)
The fact that I think are being disputed.
Moving Provokes: (page 290 PH) If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy. However, you can’t make one if the enemy shifts or teleports or is forced to move away by a pull, a push, or a slide.
No Opportunity Attacks: (page 292 PH) If you shift out of a square adjacent to an enemy, you don’t provoke an opportunity attack.
So the question is, is there a difference between shifting into a square or shifting out of a square?
So lets lay this out; we have a fighter named John Wayne with a reach weapon (a spear) and the feat Polearm Gamble. He is a tough old fat as anyone named John Wayne should be. He finds himself on a back road face to face with a kobold. As anyone with a MM knows this little jerks like to shift around. We all know John has one AO in a round so all take that as fact to work around that.
So the kobold is standing 15 feet (3 sq) away from John giving him a dirt look. The kobold says, “I am going to eat your soul”. (He thinks he is bigger then he is.) He runs up to attack and … (wow slam on the brakes folks John has an interrupt). John stabs the little guy with the end of his spear (AO). Now the little guy is shocked but as I said he thinks he is bigger then he is so he attacks John. As expected from a guy names John Wayne he shacks of the attack like it was nothing. He lifts his spear and strikes the kobold with a flash of martial power the likes few could match. Now are kobold friend is not too bright but he is fast he thinks he might have a better shot if he shift over one square. Now John can only hit him once so he swings with another AO. …..
This is where are question comes in, does john get that AO from the shift. Normally if a monster moves yes shifts no. but some people say some how John is better at seeing them coming then going.
So what do we have:
Trigger: (page 268 PH) Opportunity actions allow you to take an action in response to an enemy letting its guard down. The one type of opportunity action that every combatant can take is an opportunity attack.
Moving Provokes: (page 290 PH) If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy. However, you can’t make one if the enemy shifts or teleports or is forced to move away by a pull, a push, or a slide.
No Opportunity Attacks: (page 292 PH) If you shift out of a square adjacent to an enemy, you don’t provoke an opportunity attack.
Polearm Gamble (page 204 PH)
Prerequisites: Str 15, Wis 15
Benefit: When a nonadjacent enemy enters a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack with a polearm against that enemy, but you grant combat advantage to that enemy until the end of the enemy’s turn.
These are the rules as stated, not an interpretation. I personally would love to see someone show me in the book, not opinion or interpretation, any place where it says that shifting provokes OA from Polearm Gamble. I have found in the book a number of places where it says No Opportunity Attacks in relation to shifting.
I am not trying to be a jerk about this, I really want to have someone prove it because it would make it the strongest feat in the game and I want to play a polearm fighter that can kill anything. My DM has said if I can show it in the book ok or it will never happen.
This does not include
TELEPORTATION (page 286 PH), FORCED MOVEMENT (page 285 PH), PULL, PUSH, AND SLIDE (page 285 PH) as these are a different debates then from where this thread started.
Specific Beats General (page 11 PH)
OPPORTUNITY ATTACK: OPPORTUNITY ACTION (page 290 PH)
SHIFT: MOVE ACTION (page 292 PH)
Polearm Gamble (page 204 PH)
Reach: (page 217 PH)
The fact that I think are being disputed.
Moving Provokes: (page 290 PH) If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy. However, you can’t make one if the enemy shifts or teleports or is forced to move away by a pull, a push, or a slide.
No Opportunity Attacks: (page 292 PH) If you shift out of a square adjacent to an enemy, you don’t provoke an opportunity attack.
So the question is, is there a difference between shifting into a square or shifting out of a square?
So lets lay this out; we have a fighter named John Wayne with a reach weapon (a spear) and the feat Polearm Gamble. He is a tough old fat as anyone named John Wayne should be. He finds himself on a back road face to face with a kobold. As anyone with a MM knows this little jerks like to shift around. We all know John has one AO in a round so all take that as fact to work around that.
So the kobold is standing 15 feet (3 sq) away from John giving him a dirt look. The kobold says, “I am going to eat your soul”. (He thinks he is bigger then he is.) He runs up to attack and … (wow slam on the brakes folks John has an interrupt). John stabs the little guy with the end of his spear (AO). Now the little guy is shocked but as I said he thinks he is bigger then he is so he attacks John. As expected from a guy names John Wayne he shacks of the attack like it was nothing. He lifts his spear and strikes the kobold with a flash of martial power the likes few could match. Now are kobold friend is not too bright but he is fast he thinks he might have a better shot if he shift over one square. Now John can only hit him once so he swings with another AO. …..
This is where are question comes in, does john get that AO from the shift. Normally if a monster moves yes shifts no. but some people say some how John is better at seeing them coming then going.
So what do we have:
Trigger: (page 268 PH) Opportunity actions allow you to take an action in response to an enemy letting its guard down. The one type of opportunity action that every combatant can take is an opportunity attack.
Moving Provokes: (page 290 PH) If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy. However, you can’t make one if the enemy shifts or teleports or is forced to move away by a pull, a push, or a slide.
No Opportunity Attacks: (page 292 PH) If you shift out of a square adjacent to an enemy, you don’t provoke an opportunity attack.
Polearm Gamble (page 204 PH)
Prerequisites: Str 15, Wis 15
Benefit: When a nonadjacent enemy enters a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack with a polearm against that enemy, but you grant combat advantage to that enemy until the end of the enemy’s turn.
These are the rules as stated, not an interpretation. I personally would love to see someone show me in the book, not opinion or interpretation, any place where it says that shifting provokes OA from Polearm Gamble. I have found in the book a number of places where it says No Opportunity Attacks in relation to shifting.
I am not trying to be a jerk about this, I really want to have someone prove it because it would make it the strongest feat in the game and I want to play a polearm fighter that can kill anything. My DM has said if I can show it in the book ok or it will never happen.
This does not include
TELEPORTATION (page 286 PH), FORCED MOVEMENT (page 285 PH), PULL, PUSH, AND SLIDE (page 285 PH) as these are a different debates then from where this thread started.
Last edited:
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
No, he doesn't... Polearm Gamble only triggers when an enemy shifts from a non-adjacent square to an adjacent square. The shift the kobold just made was from one adjacent square to another adjacent square - no Polearm Gamble.
Let's rewrite your scenario very slightly: "He lifts his spear and strikes the kobold with a flash of martial power the likes few could match, and then shifts back one square. Now are kobold friend is not too bright but he is fast he thinks he can shift forward one square to get close enough to attack."
Okay, now, when the kobold shifts, he is moving from a non-adjacent square to an adjacent square, which is the requirement for Polearm Gamble.
Let's look at that "No Opportunity Attacks" text: "If you shift out of a square adjacent to an enemy, you don’t provoke an opportunity attack."
Okay - he's not shifting out of a square adjacent to an enemy, so this doesn't apply.
How about the "Moving Provokes" text? "If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy. However, you can’t make one if the enemy shifts or teleports or is forced to move away by a pull, a push, or a slide."
Okay - he's not leaving a square adjacent to John, so again, this paragraph doesn't apply.
So we have Polearm Gamble saying John gets an OA, a line from the Shift description that doesn't apply, and a paragraph from the OA description that doesn't apply. Since they don't apply, the only rule we have is Polearm Gamble saying John gets an OA.
-Hyp.
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