Shilsen's Eberron SH (Finished - The Last Word : 9/20/15)

[Vorput]

::chuckles:: Bonus points if the angels can somehow frame Saidan Boromar for everything Luna did...

 

[shilsen]

::chuckles:: Bonus points if the angels can somehow frame Saidan Boromar for everything Luna did...

I'm imagining the headline in the Sharn Inquisitive:

SAIDAN BOROMAR HAS SEX WITH KESSLER AT TAIN GALA!

 

[Solarious]

Good news is, Luna had fun.

Bad news is, the fact that Luna is having fun is debateable.

Gareth, Nameless and Korm are … useless.

Nope, nothing new here.

SAIDAN BOROMAR HAS SEX WITH KESSLER AT TAIN GALA!

That gave me a chuckle.

Note to self: Have not yet had Gareth wake up on fire. Consider potential methods of making it happen.

Make it so!

 

[zerotkatama]

Golly. Six is my favorite of the bunch, and Luna's quickly climbing the ranks to supplant Nameless as my second favorite.

 

[Furby076]

Golly. Six is my favorite of the bunch, and Luna's quickly climbing the ranks to supplant Nameless as my second favorite.

No love for the paladin who has seen the most abuse by the DM in the group.

 

[shilsen]

No love for the paladin who has seen the most abuse by the DM in the group.

It's just the love I feel for Gareth. A special gnomish kind of love.

 

[zerotkatama]

Eh. Gareth just seems too much like the arrogant snobby paladins we all loathe and hate. Though he has his moments, I prefer Cedric (That's right, innit?) to Gareth.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Now keep in mind these are just my opinions Gareth's character and actions throughout the story and don't have any bearing on the way Gareth (or any other character for that matter) is played. Not criticism in any way.

Eh. Gareth just seems too much like the arrogant snobby paladins we all loathe and hate.

See, for me it's not even that. The paladin code is incredibly strict and as such most people will not meet its standards. I think it's very reasonable that arrogant, self-righteous personalities develop out of this kind of stricture and the powers that come along with it.

What bugs me about Gareth is his paranoia. He's detecting thoughts and evil almost everywhere he goes. Now I'm not saying he shouldn't use those abilities, but I think the way in which he uses them belies his confident facade.

If this paranoia had developed from the experience with Kizmet, I'd be more sympathetic, but the reality is that he's always had this personality quirk, and I think that paranoia is really the root of all his problems. He's a little greedy (mostly for better arms and equipment, rather than monetary wealth) because he's not confident in his own abilities (though he really should be). He tows the paladin code and lectures most of the time, but he's also not above saving his own skin. And he refuses to play the politick game because he desperately--though futilely--wants to believe that his faith and powers put him above all that. He's incredibly brash but lacks self-confidence.

Imagine if, after mouthing off to the Boromars, Lalia had been the target instead of himself? Would he still be so arrogant if one morning he'd found her lifeless body in a box? One of these days his actions are going to hurt someone else rather than himself, and he's not going to be there to save the day.

I think Gareth has a lot of potential character development. He could learn a lot from his new weapon. Six and Nameless are good at playing politics. And of course there's Cedric too.

Edit: I should clarify further and say that it's not that I don't like Gareth. On the contrary, I think he's had a lot of interesting things happen to him over the course of the campaign and he's got plenty of personality potential. After all, who couldn't like the self-conscious hero on some level? But on the other hand, his stubborn refusal to cooperate and paranoia also make him difficult to relate to.

It's like the guy who's always first to say "No, you're wrong and here's why." Many times, Gareth is that guy. No one likes to be told they're wrong all the time; it's tactless and rude. Makes him hard to like.

Though he has his moments, I prefer Cedric (That's right, innit?) to Gareth.

I gotta admit the guy's interesting. Brings into question whether or not one can still be Lawful despite debauchery and drunkness and that sort of thing. It's a very stark contrast, one that I have a hard time reasoning. But it also makes the nature of paladinhood mystical and mysterious, not something attained but rather bestowed. Says a lot about the campaign metaphysics and cosmology, which I really like.

 

[shilsen]

Now keep in mind these are just my opinions Gareth's character and actions throughout the story and don't have any bearing on the way Gareth (or any other character for that matter) is played. Not criticism in any way.

Yeah, yeah - that's what we all say when we're dissing poor Gareth

See, for me it's not even that. The paladin code is incredibly strict and as such most people will not meet its standards. I think it's very reasonable that arrogant, self-righteous personalities develop out of this kind of stricture and the powers that come along with it.

Agreed. I think the concept of the paladin with "stick up ass" as a class feature is somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy. As you say, the nature of the code means it requires a significant amount of (almost blind) faith in oneself and one's principles to adhere to it. And the very knowledge that you adhere to that code and have special dispensation from your god is likely to have at least some influence on even the most level-headed of paladins. A milder version of the "power corrupts" dictum, I guess.

Of course, it should be clear from my use of Cedric and posting on various paladin threads (not to mention creating the original Cedric in the thread in my sig) that I think it's quite possible to move beyond that archetype, but I do think it's quite a reasonable archetype for the majority of paladins.

What bugs me about Gareth is his paranoia. He's detecting thoughts and evil almost everywhere he goes. Now I'm not saying he shouldn't use those abilities, but I think the way in which he uses them belies his confident facade.

Nameless (and to a lesser extent, the rest) would agree with you. There's a fair amount of in-character joking at the table that Gareth's current inability to detect evil is cutting down the PCs' ability to judge whom to trust, since they can normally trust anyone he detects as evil

If this paranoia had developed from the experience with Kizmet, I'd be more sympathetic, but the reality is that he's always had this personality quirk, and I think that paranoia is really the root of all his problems. He's a little greedy (mostly for better arms and equipment, rather than monetary wealth) because he's not confident in his own abilities (though he really should be). He tows the paladin code and lectures most of the time, but he's also not above saving his own skin. And he refuses to play the politick game because he desperately--though futilely--wants to believe that his faith and powers put him above all that. He's incredibly brash but lacks self-confidence.

That last sentence is a very nice way to put it. I think that's one of the many areas where he stands in stark contrast to Cedric. The latter has moved to the degree of self-confidence (as well as knowledge of his own limits) that he doesn't have to be the least bit brash. Or, to put it more succinctly, Gareth often feels the need to tell people what he is. Cedric simply is.

Imagine if, after mouthing off to the Boromars, Lalia had been the target instead of himself? Would he still be so arrogant if one morning he'd found her lifeless body in a box? One of these days his actions are going to hurt someone else rather than himself, and he's not going to be there to save the day.

You trying to give me ideas ?

I think Gareth has a lot of potential character development. He could learn a lot from his new weapon. Six and Nameless are good at playing politics. And of course there's Cedric too.

Actually, of the entire bunch, I'd say Six right now is the only one who's good at playing politics. Which works perfectly with him suddenly coming out of the Demon Wastes with a +4 boost to Int, Wis and Cha.

Edit: I should clarify further and say that it's not that I don't like Gareth. On the contrary, I think he's had a lot of interesting things happen to him over the course of the campaign and he's got plenty of personality potential. After all, who couldn't like the self-conscious hero on some level? But on the other hand, his stubborn refusal to cooperate and paranoia also make him difficult to relate to.

It's like the guy who's always first to say "No, you're wrong and here's why." Many times, Gareth is that guy. No one likes to be told they're wrong all the time; it's tactless and rude. Makes him hard to like.

I'd agree with most of the above, but if you're referring to Gareth as the self-conscious hero, I don't really think that applies. He's not very good at stepping back and looking at himself. Which, admittedly, is mostly an intentional character trait. Avi's discussed with me more than once that he's intentionally playing Gareth as somewhat delusional, especially when it comes to himself.

I gotta admit the guy's interesting. Brings into question whether or not one can still be Lawful despite debauchery and drunkness and that sort of thing. It's a very stark contrast, one that I have a hard time reasoning. But it also makes the nature of paladinhood mystical and mysterious, not something attained but rather bestowed. Says a lot about the campaign metaphysics and cosmology, which I really like.

I don't know if it helps, but when I'm thinking about Cedric's relationship with the Law aspect of alignment (he's quite undisputedly Good), I tend to heavily emphasize the aspects of consistency. He does surprisingly few things on a whim, though someone catching just one day of his activities may think of it as such. As a minor example, he'll be drinking every day, just about the same amount, and will never ever be found drunk, because he knows precisely what he can handle and he does exactly that amount. And that applies to most aspects of his life. I actually see him as very self-consciously mechanistic, perpetually aware of and questioning himself, and making sure that he consistently does exactly what he must to walk the line between light and dark. The PCs would get a lot more of that if he showed up more, but I really like the NPC, so I'm making sure to give him very little face time because I don't want him stealing the PCs' thunder at all.

Since I'm getting to play out his attainment of paladinhood in another campaign where I run him as a PC, I'll probably post a little writeup of his actual attainment of it on the "World's Worst Paladin" thread when it happens, and mention it here in case you or anyone else is interested.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

I'd agree with most of the above, but if you're referring to Gareth as the self-conscious hero, I don't really think that applies. He's not very good at stepping back and looking at himself. Which, admittedly, is mostly an intentional character trait. Avi's discussed with me more than once that he's intentionally playing Gareth as somewhat delusional, especially when it comes to himself.

Well, you gotta remember I'm just playing psychiatrist here because I don't have direct insight into the mind of the character (i.e., talking to Avi ). Maybe "self-conscious" wasn't the best way to describe the character, but based on his actions throughout the story I get the impression Gareth is nowhere near as confident as he appears. Maybe he doesn't realize that, but based on what I've read I think those elements are there.