D&D 5E Short Rest Classes: Is the "Short Rest Problem" a "Monk Problem"

[Voadam]

edit. oops, wrong thread.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Why don't you rerun those numbers at level 4 or level 8 and get back to me?

Level 4 is tier 1 so isn't relevant for the Tier 2 comparison. And level 8 means that the fighter has Strength 20 and a feat while the Monk has Dex 20 but no feat.

So if we're going Sword and Board then the only real choice is Polearm Master, meaning that both the fighter and the monk are using spears or quarterstaffs. At which point the Monk gets two attacks at 1d8+5 and a bonus action attack at 1d8+5, each averaging 9.5 damage per hit before taking into account magic weapons. By contrast the duelist Fighter gets two attacks at 1d6+7 damage (average 10.5) and a bonus action attack doing 1d4+7 damage (average 9.5). The fighter's standard action attacks are therefore stronger than the monk's and the fighter's bonus action attack is the same strength as the monk's.

The monk does more damage if and only if they spend their ki points flurrying. Otherwise the fighter hits harder. And if, as you propose, the monk spends most of their time dodging they are way behind.

Also as a point of fact 25.5 is greater than 23.

It is - but did you miss the point where the fighter has +1 to hit? Which more or less cancels that out.

 

[ECMO3]

Level 4 is tier 1 so isn't relevant for the Tier 2 comparison. And level 8 means that the fighter has Strength 20 and a feat while the Monk has Dex 20 but no feat.

Level 4 is relevant when my original statement is a Monk generally does more damage in "tier 1 and tier 2". And to be clear I stated specifically using only fighter class abilities without feats. Feats are an optional rule and not a class ability and they are wide open. I was pretty specific on what I said, I even qualified it with "You can use feats and subclass abilities to beat those numbers, but a base Monk is not behind anyone on melee damage before tier 3."

You might not like what I said, you might not think it is a fair comparison, but it is undeniably true.

It is - but did you miss the point where the fighter has +1 to hit? Which more or less cancels that out.

At 6th and 7th level only, not at level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 8. Further the Monk has more dice on criticals and the Monk's damage is divided by 3 attacks so more of it will land (as any damage that is more than the hps of the enemy is wasted and does not land).

For example, even at 6th level - put these two up against a horde of sturgis and the Monk is taking down 2.1 per turn. The fighter is taking down 1.5. Alternatively a fighter is putting down 1.5 and a Monk 1.4 while also giving them disadvantage. That is at 6th level where the fighter has a +1 attack advantage.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Level 4 is relevant when my original statement is a Monk generally does more damage in "tier 1 and tier 2".

The thing is that you are right in tier 1. Monks are good at damage in tier 1 - I am only disagreeing about Tier 2.

If you were to say "Humans can breathe without help on the surface of the earth and the moon" and I were to point out that they can't on the moon it's irrelevant to point out they can on the earth.

And to be clear I stated specifically using only fighter class abilities without feats. Feats are an optional rule and not a class ability and they are wide open.

I have literally never played a game without feats and I don't think I've played with anyone who doesn't use feats. Not using feats is rare enough to be a house rule.

And if you want to nerf the fighter by house rule then fine. But it's not relevant to actual play for most people. Monks also win unarmed competitions. So what?

 

[ECMO3]

I have literally never played a game without feats and I don't think I've played with anyone who doesn't use feats. Not using feats is rare enough to be a house rule.

And I have never played an 8th level sword and board fighter with PAM. As a matter of fact I have never even had a sword and board PAM fighter at my table. Not saying it is a bad build but it is not common. The majority of sword and board fighters are not going to have this feat at 8th level, they are going to have a different feat, or an ASI in another ability. There about 70 different feats you can take, probably 40 of them are viable and you are going to be behind a Monk at 8th level after you take some 35 of those as well as if you take an ASI in another ability (in addition to also being behind at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and slightly behind at 6th and 7th). That pretty much covers ALL of tier 1 and tier 2 which is what my statement was.

I said specifically without using feats and using class abilities. I made the statement "you could use feats" to build a fighter that does more, but feats are not a fighter class ability, they are not in the PHB under the fighter. If we are looking outside the classes there are all sorts of things you can do - cantrips, subclasses, races (that give the monk access to d10 weapons) which is why I said "class abilities". This is not a comparison between the best builds, it is a comparison of the classes alone.

And if you want to nerf the fighter by house rule then fine. But it's not relevant to actual play for most people. Monks also win unarmed competitions. So what?

PAM is not relevant to most fighters (a lot yes, most no), yet you still used it to boost your numbers.

 

[Neonchameleon]

PAM is not relevant to most fighters (a lot yes, most no), yet you still used it to boost your numbers.

And two handing versatile weapons is not relevant to most monks (a lot yes, most no), yet you still used it to boost your numbers and objected when I offered more normal numbers first for level 6 comparisons.

You seem to be using an optimised Schrodinger's Monk that simultaneously benefits from the damage of flurry and following the good tactics of using the dodge bonus action to claim it keeps up with the fighter. Which, yes, an optimised Schrodinger's Monk beats a nerfed fighter, designed with feats in mind but not using them.

 

[ECMO3]

And two handing versatile weapons is not relevant to most monks (a lot yes, most no), yet you still used it to boost your numbers and objected when I offered more normal numbers first for level 6 comparisons.

What? Every Monk I have seen played used a spear or a staff as a melee weapon until they got a magic weapon. Every single one. The only exceptions are the ones that used Warhammers or Longswords they got through a race or multiclass.

A quarterstaff is the default Monk weapon, heck look up "5E Monk" on google image and you will find the quarterstaff is by far the most common weapon in fan art, outnumbering all other melee weapons combined by about 2:1. Quarterstaff is the default Monk weapon, like a longsword is the default "sword and board" weapon for a fighter.

There is a big difference between using the best weapon available to the build (which you did as well on your sword and board fighter) and using a feat in a discussion on damage without feats.

Moreover I did not change up my weapon at 8th level. Take that 8th-level fighter and run the numbers using the same longsword he had at 6th level along with the PAM feat he picked up ... or run the 6th level numbers using the staff or spear he will be using at 8th.

You seem to be using an optimised Schrodinger's Monk that simultaneously benefits from the damage of flurry and following the good tactics of using the dodge bonus action to claim it keeps up with the fighter. Which, yes, an optimised Schrodinger's Monk beats a nerfed fighter, designed with feats in mind but not using them.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[James Gasik]

I just had a poll to gather data about how much people argue about Monks and Fighters. I could have waited a week and just produced this thread as evidence! Now all we need is someone to bring up Rangers, Wizards, or Warlords somehow!

 

[Seramus]

I went to the 10 minute short rest a while ago so that it matches up timewise with rituals. So now when the wizard or cleric spends 10 minutes to cast a ritual the group needs, the others can take a short rest and get back their HP (and/or class abilities.)

Same. 10 Minutes 2/Day for me. Lines up nicely with ritual casting, and makes for quicker decision making on the whole.