D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[Maxperson]

Well, then you using that metaphor specifically so you HAVE to be in the right is pointless then. No one need bother listening to your metaphor. You're basically saying "I'm in the right, and here is a self-proving metaphor that reiterates that I'm right".

I'm not using any metaphor in order to "have to be right." I'm simply pointing out that it is lipstick on a pig, which it is, and pointing that it's not a half-elf(which is explicitly half-elven and half-human) if it's fully human or fully elven and just looks different.

It's not a matter of right or wrong, but rather a matter of what is or isn't. If folks want to discuss different implementations of half-elf mechanics, because they don't think it has been represented well up to this point, that's a different discussion. While I am happy with how it has been done up to this point, I'm open to the idea that it could be better with other mechanics. I don't know what those mechanics could be, but that's what the discussion would be for.

 

[Remathilis]

I'm not using any metaphor in order to "have to be right." I'm simply pointing out that it is lipstick on a pig, which it is, and pointing that it's not a half-elf(which is explicitly half-elven and half-human) if it's fully human or fully elven and just looks different.

It's not a matter of right or wrong, but rather a matter of what is or isn't. If folks want to discuss different implementations of half-elf mechanics, because they don't think it has been represented well up to this point, that's a different discussion. While I am happy with how it has been done up to this point, I'm open to the idea that it could be better with other mechanics. I don't know what those mechanics could be, but that's what the discussion would be for.

My position, having shifted, is basically one of two implementations;

1. A new species that captures the theme of a mortal and fey mixture, that could represent multiple origins besides human bumping uglies with an elf.

2. A hybrid system/custom lineage that can represent all manner species crossbreeding.

What I don't want is one specific species representing one specific pairing of species at the exclusion of all others.

 

[Maxperson]

My position, having shifted, is basically one of two implementations;

1. A new species that captures the theme of a mortal and fey mixture, that could represent multiple origins besides human bumping uglies with an elf.

2. A hybrid system/custom lineage that can represent all manner species crossbreeding.

What I don't want is one specific species representing one specific pairing of species at the exclusion of all others.

I think number 1 is doable, which would move half-elf to half-fey, but I don't think number 2 can be done well. Any system that is generic enough to be applicable to every combination of every race, isn't going to be able to create unique racial abilities based on any particular combination.

A generic system will basically just be rules on creating the current half-elf by looking at both parents and taking some of the abilities that each parent has.

The only way that I can see number 2 being done(and it really isn't being done), is for rules on racial creation being in the DMG and telling the DMs to have at it themselves whenever they want say a half-halfling/half-triton. That's not a system or pre-made custom lineage, though. It's what we have already been able to do since 1e(or before).

 

[Minigiant]

Part of me wants the mixed species to remain in and be an additional on subsystem for the language system.

Like Half Elves can speak any language with Common or Elvish script and roll Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion with CON when speaking them.

Half Orcs can speak Common and Orcish and add a 1d12 to skill checks when speaking X language.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I'm not using any metaphor in order to "have to be right." I'm simply pointing out that it is lipstick on a pig, which it is, and pointing that it's not a half-elf(which is explicitly half-elven and half-human) if it's fully human or fully elven and just looks different.

It's not a matter of right or wrong, but rather a matter of what is or isn't. If folks want to discuss different implementations of half-elf mechanics, because they don't think it has been represented well up to this point, that's a different discussion. While I am happy with how it has been done up to this point, I'm open to the idea that it could be better with other mechanics. I don't know what those mechanics could be, but that's what the discussion would be for.

And the other side of the argument is that it isn't game mechanics that decide what something is or isn't... but what they are identified as.

You say that a character that is identified as a half-elf in the game's campaign world and story isn't actually a half-elf if their mechanical representation is that of a human or an elf. If the mechanics are of a human then they ARE a human, regardless of what they are called in-game.

Which is your opinion of course. And you are free to have it. But it doesn't mean that is the only way to look at it, nor that your way is the correct one. There is something to be said about accepting what a character identifies as, regardless of what their equipment might suggest they "should be".

 

[Vaalingrade]

Because all races have to be identical.

I love how people(not singling you out here) are like, "Races can't have +2 strength or intelligence, because that's superiority over other races and bad!", while at the same time being like, "We can give them powerful build instead, so that that they are are stronger than other races and not superiority, and that's good!"

A physical difference is not the same as being superior mentally.

You keep trotting out this pig and not trying to even put lipstick on it and we can all still see it's a pig.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

A physical difference is not the same as being superior mentally.

Do you think that Vulcans or androids in Star Trek are somehow problematic due their superhuman computation and memory capabilities? Do you think it is problematic that in Star Wars C-3PO knows six million languages, a mental feat clearly impossible for any human?

 

[Remathilis]

I think number 1 is doable, which would move half-elf to half-fey, but I don't think number 2 can be done well. Any system that is generic enough to be applicable to every combination of every race, isn't going to be able to create unique racial abilities based on any particular combination.

A generic system will basically just be rules on creating the current half-elf by looking at both parents and taking some of the abilities that each parent has.

The only way that I can see number 2 being done(and it really isn't being done), is for rules on racial creation being in the DMG and telling the DMs to have at it themselves whenever they want say a half-halfling/half-triton. That's not a system or pre-made custom lineage, though. It's what we have already been able to do since 1e(or before).

2 could be done if they took the concept of custom lineages and then gave them some generic options that could be flavored to make mixed species. For example, you could take darkvision, fey ancestry and resistance to fire and say you are half-elf/half-red dragonborn, or even half-hobgoblin/half-infernal tiefling. You won't get the cooler unique abilities of most species, but being able to pick some useful generic ones (fly/swim/climb speed, breathe water, resistance to an element, fey ancestry, relentless endurance, darkvision, bonus skill, or a bonus spell) might allow you to make something that resembles a hybrid.

 

[AnotherGuy]

A physical difference is not the same as being superior mentally.

You keep trotting out this pig and not trying to even put lipstick on it and we can all still see it's a pig.

I'm not sure why any fantasy race being more intelligent is somehow reflective on humanity.
Do you suppose if humanity ever encounters alien life forms they will be on par with our own intelligence?

I expect a mind flayer to have greater capability of willpower than a human given their innate ability to subjugate others mentally.
Sometimes these mental abilities of reason logic willpower recollection can be showcased with a racial feature, like the minotaur's immunity to mazes, or the elf's defenses against sleep and charm spells, other times a simple +x will suffice.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I would suggest you are perhaps making the wrong analogy in this case.

Of course we can't get all other humans to listen to us, because there is only one human species in real life-- which is very different than within D&D. In D&D there are dozens upon dozens of different species, meaning that you would only get to get things done with a small subset of all those sentient people.

So the analogy is more like if you were a member of some group within humanity-- occupational, racial, national, gendered, religious, or any other subset... and more often than not someone within that group would give you information or assistance when asked. If you were a member of the Teamsters Union and you found another member of the Teamster's Union and asked them to give you a hand with something (especially when directly related to Teamster activities)... why would the DM even give us the chance that your Teamster friend would say 'No' on some of the most innocuous things by having the roll possibly fail, and thus cutting off the advancement of the story? There are hundreds of thousands of other NPCs out there who all have legitimate reasons to tell that PC 'No' on their request for assistance... why give this fellow member of some connective group the chance to do that too? What's the point of being a Teamster if you can't be assured that more often than not, fellow Teamsters are going to help you out?

***

I do want it to be said though that this idea that I was just coming up with off the top of my head at the time was not meant to be universal across the entire game-- never having the players "fail". This was specifically asked of me as what I'd do for species mechanics and given the specific suggestion of elves interacting with other elves. And to be fair, I'm not even saying that this idea that elves will almost always help other elves in most regular interactions is in fact the right or best idea... but merely that this idea I feel is miles better that the piddling 4 game mechanics the game currently uses to distinguish one species from another.

People have been saying they need ways to distinguish a species as being substantively different than the other species, and apparently believe that letting Halfling re-roll 1s and Dwarves resist poison does the trick. I mean, if that's all they need then okay... they can be happy with what the game presents and use it to their heart's content. For me personally, though, I don't find those "game mechanics" meaningful in any way. So usually when I'm DMing I just see who these PCs are and what they've done and then let them do the stuff they are looking to do based upon that status-- and not bothering to use mechanics to first check if it "works" or not. Because to me... a failed check is the "No" to improv's "Yes, And..." It stops the story in its tracks. Which occasionally is fine... especially when we're talking about really, really important events that might require a lot of effort to succeed on-- roadblocks can create drama and drama makes eventual success have more meaning... but for most rudimentary action that the PCs do? Keep the game moving. Advance the story. Let who they are and what they've done actual be meaningful. Because forcing them to use mechanics for no good reason other than "It's a game!!!" defeats the purpose of us playing an RPG rather than a board game.

Of course, this is just my opinion... I could be wrong.

Perhaps "advancing the story" simply isn't the goal of every game. I know that I don't want anything to happen in my game just because it advances the story. Give me setting logic why things work the way they do.