D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[Micah Sweet]

To me it seems to be a way of recognising the significance of being an Elf in certain situations: you know more about Elvish lore, other Elves respond to you more favourably, etc.

I don't see anything being modelled. To give a comparison: in the example of play in Moldvay's Basic rulebook, the GM grants a +1 bonus to the Hobgoblin reaction roll due to the manner in which Silverleaf greets the Hobgoblins. That is not a model of anything either - it's a way of recognising the significance of the non-hostile greeting.

Perhaps your definition of modeling differs from that of others. I'm thinking of any mechanical representation of something in the fiction of the setting (not the story, the setting, by which I mean things perceivable by creatures in the world) as a modeling of it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Where is it written on tablets of stone that those two publishing options are the only ones a commercial publisher of RPGs is allowed to choose between?

Nowhere, but I see no creative value personally in any other option.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, it was JRRT who introduced fantasy races/species into the genre, and patterns of affinity and role and perspective is exactly what they are!

If Elves and Dwarves don't serve that purpose - for instance, if Elves are just as culturally, historically, etc varies as humans but with pointier ears - then I don't think they bring much to the table.

For me, at least, the idea of trying to treat them as some more ambitious sci-fi tries to treat aliens - that is, trying to imagine genuinely non-human intelligent beings with their own non-human, non-primate natures and ways of being - is completely out of place in a FRPG.

Why? What makes fantasy more restrictive than science fiction in that regard?

 

[Mecheon]

define whimsy?

do you mean like golems? I do not think those are a short arcane guy thing.
no robots have sparks or spirts everyone knows that.

Whismsy. Just a pinch of lightheartedness, just a scrap.

And no, I mean Autognomes who canonically are just built that good they've got souls
Warforged and Autognomes have souls, plus Golmoids if you like your random Dragon Magazine articles. S'why all the various raise from dead spells work on them normal and there's no rule about them being immune to reincarnation

 

[Hussar]

, because both can be D&D, both cannot be the same edition.

The fact that you are insisting on “edition” proves you are edition warring.

The rules have been revised. Changes have been made but wasn’t a new edition when Tasha’s revised the stat bonuses for species. It wasn’t a new edition when we added warforged or artificers.

It’s only a new edition when someone doesn’t like the changes and wants to claim superiority and force their preferences on others.

 

[Vaalingrade]

why did people love gnomes so much? what do they even do?

Because they were suddenly going to be taken away. Like how most 'beloved' things in D&D become beloved.

 

[pemerton]

In your opinion is the descriptor-mechanic a tool more towards a Narrative-style or a nod towards Gamist?

On it's own I don't know that it's either. I see it as more about techniques of relating the fiction and the mechanics: instead of looking to the mechanics to provide a sort of "scaffold" or "model" of the fiction (in the same way we might look at the specifications of a machine, to try and imagine it in action), the descriptor highlights some salient thing about the fiction (eg that this person is an elf) and then we (the game participants - whether GM, or player, or maybe both) make a decision about how that salient thing manifests itself in the fiction.

I see it as a way of making bits of the fiction "pop" - it pushes away from what can seem like an engineering mindset, and more towards a "what really matters here?" mindset.

Perhaps your definition of modeling differs from that of others. I'm thinking of any mechanical representation of something in the fiction of the setting (not the story, the setting, by which I mean things perceivable by creatures in the world) as a modeling of it.

Well, the granting of advantage to the knowledge roll because the player's PC is an Elf, and the information at hand pertains to Elves, isn't representing anything. In the fiction, there's just this person with their head full of stuff that they know.

Granting advantage means that (i) it is more likely that the table will settle on a shared fiction where this Elf knows this Elf-y sort of stuff, and (more importantly, I think, and relating to @AnotherGuy's post that I've replied to above) (ii) it makes the fact that the PC is an Elf salient at that moment in the play of the game. The granting of advantage reminds everyone that this character is an Elf, and that being an Elf matters.

So the granting of advantage on the basis of this descriptor is not a method of representing the fiction. It's an alternative to a representation or modelling approach, that is about foregrounding, in play, elements of the fiction that the table thinks are significant.

 

[pemerton]

If they wanted to make some minor changes they could have released errata. If they want to make bigger changes they could have released a new edition. Both are logical courses of action that have precedent.

I see no creative value personally in any other option.

Huh? So there is no creative value in publishing an updated version of the rules that reflects designer adjustments/corrections, changes in the "meta" (driven by changes in the player base, widespread play cultures, etc)?

Even though other RPG publishers have been doing exactly this sort of thing for over 40 years? (Eg Classic Traveller was first published in 1977, and then had an updated/revised version published in 1981).

I don't understand where your arbitrary stipulations about what is or is not acceptable RPG publishing practice are coming from.

 

[Maxperson]

The fact that you are insisting on “edition” proves you are edition warring.

The rules have been revised. Changes have been made but wasn’t a new edition when Tasha’s revised the stat bonuses for species. It wasn’t a new edition when we added warforged or artificers.

It’s only a new edition when someone doesn’t like the changes and wants to claim superiority and force their preferences on others.

You need to look up what edition warring is, because calling 5.5e a new edition is not it.

I tell you what, though, if you want to prove that it's all 5e, use only 5e to refer to anything dealing with either the 2014 books or the 2024 books. If it's all 5e, you won't need anything other than 5e to talk about the rules without causing confusion. If you have to differentiate by saying "2014/2024" or "new/old" etc., in order to avoid confusion, then we are dealing with a new edition or half-edition. So if you can use nothing other than 5e and cause no confusion at all, I will concede that it's all one edition.

Oh, and I've made no claim of superiority. I like some stuff from 5.5e, but not other stuff. Same as 5e. Same as 4e. Same as 3e. Same as 3.5e. Same as 2e. Same as 1e. My calling it 5.5e is not any sort of proof that I don't like the edition and/or am trying to assert superiority. Stop trying to ascribe things to me that aren't there.

 

[pemerton]

For me, at least, the idea of trying to treat them as some more ambitious sci-fi tries to treat aliens - that is, trying to imagine genuinely non-human intelligent beings with their own non-human, non-primate natures and ways of being - is completely out of place in a FRPG.

Why? What makes fantasy more restrictive than science fiction in that regard?

Fantasy is replete with nostalgic and even reactionary tropes - knights, hermits, swords, castles, redemptive violence, etc.

In order to make this tenable rather than horrible, these tropes are not explored in any sort of "scientific" or analytic fashion. They are carefully curated to tell stories that provide some sort of comfort or assurance. Often there is quite a bit of sentimentality.

I don't think these aesthetics of the fantasy genre fit with an attempt to imagine genuinely non-human intelligent beings.