D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[pemerton]

It is. It models/expresses a racial ability that comes into play in certain situations. Unless you're suggesting he'd give the mechanical advantage to elves talking to other elves in elvish sometimes, but not other times. It's just not a formalized model the way that the PHB races use.

To me it seems to be a way of recognising the significance of being an Elf in certain situations: you know more about Elvish lore, other Elves respond to you more favourably, etc.

I don't see anything being modelled. To give a comparison: in the example of play in Moldvay's Basic rulebook, the GM grants a +1 bonus to the Hobgoblin reaction roll due to the manner in which Silverleaf greets the Hobgoblins. That is not a model of anything either - it's a way of recognising the significance of the non-hostile greeting.

 

[pemerton]

Right, which is what I said, and you disagreed with. If we remove the actual mental, physical and metaphysical differences between the species they become just human cultures except cosmetically.

What you said, that I disagreed with, was:

all species mechanics must be removed, species can only be cosmetic.

If species is about affinities, ways of seeing things and being seen, etc then that doesn't make it only cosmetic. It might be a fundamental element of game play!

 

[pemerton]

maybe, but different species should also occupy the role of being actually different species, i wouldn't want all my species bonuses to end up being because of their culture, at one point people were complaining that species seemed genetically coded to know their own species language or a dwarf was born knowing how to use hammers and axes, and AnotherGuy's suggestions are exactly these kinds of weird genetically innate culture traits, or presume species to all be these conglomerate monocultures of likeminded peoples.

Well, it was JRRT who introduced fantasy races/species into the genre, and patterns of affinity and role and perspective is exactly what they are!

If Elves and Dwarves don't serve that purpose - for instance, if Elves are just as culturally, historically, etc varies as humans but with pointier ears - then I don't think they bring much to the table.

For me, at least, the idea of trying to treat them as some more ambitious sci-fi tries to treat aliens - that is, trying to imagine genuinely non-human intelligent beings with their own non-human, non-primate natures and ways of being - is completely out of place in a FRPG.

 

[pemerton]

Is 5e a video game or other piece of software now? If they wanted to make some minor changes they could have released errata. If they want to make bigger changes they could have released a new edition. Both are logical courses of action that have precedent.

Where is it written on tablets of stone that those two publishing options are the only ones a commercial publisher of RPGs is allowed to choose between?

 

[Hussar]

Right, its part of 5.0, its part of "D&D" its part of the wider ecosystem of '5th Edition'.

Its simply not part of 2024 "5.5e" PHB. Its not in the current PHB, and isnt even mentioned. Its been removed.

No. It’s part of DnD. Full stop.

The whole 5.5 thing is just edition warring.

There is no such thing as 5.5.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

What you said, that I disagreed with, was:
If species is about affinities, ways of seeing things and being seen, etc then that doesn't make it only cosmetic. It might be a fundamental element of game play!

But those affinities and perspectives must be somehow different than those of humans for that difference to be more than cosmetic compared to them.

Well, it was JRRT who introduced fantasy races/species into the genre, and patterns of affinity and role and perspective is exactly what they are!

Well, I think there is more to this than that. Elves also have immortality, superior senses and health, powerful fëa etc, and the affinities and perspectives of the elves are shaped by these.

If Elves and Dwarves don't serve that purpose - for instance, if Elves are just as culturally, historically, etc varies as humans but with pointier ears - then I don't think they bring much to the table.

Right.

For me, at least, the idea of trying to treat them as some more ambitious sci-fi tries to treat aliens - that is, trying to imagine genuinely non-human intelligent beings with their own non-human, non-primate natures and ways of being - is completely out of place in a FRPG.

I don't agree with this at all, nor I think there even is such a stark difference between scifi and fantasy. Granted, for gaming deep xenofiction might be hard to do, but more moderate take on the level of, say, better Star Trek species is pretty feasible. And there still could be some options for more alien perspectives for those who find exploring such appealing.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

There is no such thing as 5.5.

Why are we buying new books then?

 

[Hussar]

Why are we buying new books then?

Because they have updated some of the rules?

Why did you buy Tasha’s, or any other DnD book? Does using Tasha’s mean that I cannot play 2014 races because of the new racial stat bonuses? I’m no longer playing DnD if I use a warforged?

 

[AnotherGuy]

maybe, but different species should also occupy the role of being actually different species, i wouldn't want all my species bonuses to end up being because of their culture, at one point people were complaining that species seemed genetically coded to know their own species language or a dwarf was born knowing how to use hammers and axes, and AnotherGuy's suggestions are exactly these kinds of weird genetically innate culture traits, or presume species to all be these conglomerate monocultures of likeminded peoples.

For clarity's sake, the examples I provided were
(a) To arrive at a better understanding of how DEFCON 1 viewed racial mechanics;
(b) Those examples would not necessarily be fixed to race, but would very much be determined on the culture, background and class of the character. So how I'm envisioning it at play at the table, the DM would provide that perk on the spur of the moment or the player would petition for it.

In our non-D&D Mystara, Rockhome campaign, everybody is playing a dwarf.
The race provides its own racial Benefits as well as Flaws (mechanical).
We roll for Clan, Home, Age and Wealth which provide additional Perks/Flaws.
But the strength of these Flaws is determined by the player. Most Flaws can be overcome

 

[CreamCloud0]

Well, it was JRRT who introduced fantasy races/species into the genre, and patterns of affinity and role and perspective is exactly what they are!
If Elves and Dwarves don't serve that purpose - for instance, if Elves are just as culturally, historically, etc varies as humans but with pointier ears - then I don't think they bring much to the table.

Yes, However patterns of affinity and role and perspective shouldn't be ALL THAT THEY ARE, i agree that they should be more than just pointy eared humans culturally but i also think they ought to be more than that biologically as well.

For me, at least, the idea of trying to treat them as some more ambitious sci-fi tries to treat aliens - that is, trying to imagine genuinely non-human intelligent beings with their own non-human, non-primate natures and ways of being - is completely out of place in a FRPG.

personally i do not agree with this perspective one bit, fantasy and sci-fy really aren't that dissimilar under the hood, like, starwars is the classic example with luke being the young 'Knight' aided by obi wan the 'Wizard' going on a quest to rescue leia the 'Princess', the species they encounter in space or classic fantasy should bring different perspectives influenced by what they are, because encountering these wildly different creatures who ALL somehow manage to have the exact same perspectives as humans is rediculously far fetched and the least interesting choice possible to me.