D&D 5E Should 5E have Healing Surges?

[Izumi]

If you get hit in the head with a longsword, you're not going to be battered or stunned, you're going to be dead. Getting hit in the head with a longsword is not at all an appropriate analogue to taking some hitpoint damage. You couldn't take the game seriously at all if that is what it meant...

I have never before in my life seen a statement about D&D that shocked me as much as this... Talk about getting a rude awakening to exactly just how different someone else's game can be.

I've always considered that the players knowing their character's HP total was a flat out assumed part of the game that nobody ever, ever questioned. I'd consider any DM that refused to let me know something so basic to be sadistic at the very least, and probably deserving of a few terms inappropriate for this forum. The idea that someone would consider something like that "super kind" is staggering...

Please tell me you are joking... Please...

Mattachine-sama is absolutely right about the hp abstraction.

Not joking at all. You roll for hp and you know your total, but when you're struck all you're told is how it happened and how severe it was by description. The number is secret. Makes things really scary, doesn't it?

 

[Zaukrie]

What a fascinating discussion on so many levels.

1. reminds us all that logic and emotion are not the same thing and that decisions about what we LIKE are driven largely by emotion and not logic
2. some great suggestions for new ways of looking at hps and healing
3. reminds me not to always take peoples' opinions personally, sometimes they are driven by emotions, sometimes by logic, and sometimes by lack of understanding how something works...but none of those make them a bad person.


on topic:
I've never understood why some people insist that hit points represent only physical wounds, when the rule books clearly state they don't.

I hope WotC can figure this part of the mechanics out, because I found the old styles of healing to be tedious.

Also, are there people that really role play lying in the hospital for 3 months? What do the other players do during that time? Sounds boring for the guy laying the hospital while everyone else is off doing something.

 

[Naszir]

NFL players don't get hit with Longswords.



Swords, claws, bites, falling 100 feet.

Actually, we ARE talking about getting hit with a sword and then saying "ok buddy get up" in 4E.

That's why it's so stupid.



It doesn't work.


This is the funniest argument about people who support the healing surge concept (and worse yet, the self-heal / I'm not wounded concept).

Hit points are abstract. Hence, they don't actually mean damage.

Seriously?

They don't represent damage?

Then how come its called DAMAGE in the game?

How come its called HEALING in the game?

The argument that hit points are abstract, hence it's ok to have abstract Healing Surges is like saying that imaginary numbers are abstract in the real world, hence it's ok to assume that we'll one day travel through wormholes.

One level of abstraction is a lot less nonsensical than the other in both cases.

OK, I get it. You are set in your ways. If that works for your group that's great. I try and bring a different perspective and you don't see it that way. That's alright. I see hit points as the suggested guidelines are presented and you don't. That's the great thing, in the end we can go our own way.

 

[Naszir]

I think I at last see the abstraction from the perspective of the 4th Edition players.

You're just deciding when to give it that extra effort under stress, the same as your character would if under duress and desperate. Is that correct?

Izumi,

Pretty much.

 

[Fede]

It's not a matter of knowing you have a second wind. It's a matter of you deciding for your character that now is the time for it. Triggered is fine. It's the decision outside the game to have it that rubs people the wrong way, I think. You as a human playing sports might get a second wind, but that's not because the guy upstairs playing you said now's the time, right?

Also, remember that second wind costs a standard action. So the character's conscious decision that you are looking for can be "I'm feeling exhausted, I'll stop pressing on with my attacks to catch my breath".
It probably won't satisfy you, but it can give an in game reason for the character's triggering of the healing.

 

[Hassassin]

The rules say that hit points are not just the ability to withstand punishment, but also the ability to turn blows to minor flesh wounds etc.

Nowhere does it say damage is not really damage.

That's why the simplest interpretation to me has always been that a hit that does damage equal to 10% of hp always results in an equal injury, regardless of whether it's 1 damage to a 1st level or 10 damage to a 10th level fighter.

 

[Naszir]

The rules say that hit points are not just the ability to withstand punishment, but also the ability to turn blows to minor flesh wounds etc.

Nowhere does it say damage is not really damage.

That's why the simplest interpretation to me has always been that a hit that does damage equal to 10% of hp always results in an equal injury, regardless of whether it's 1 damage to a 1st level or 10 damage to a 10th level fighter.

That's the 3e definition. Other versions of the game have defined hit points differently and they include hit point damage as not always being physical damage.

If it is always physical damage why are there no ill effects from that damage. A 10th level fighter suffering a critical hit from a giant with an axe suffers no reprecussions other than to say "I lost some hit points". What?

Ok, how about, even though it was a critical hit the fighter says "That's just a scratch." What? You just lost half your hit points but it was just a scratch?

The force from such an attack if it was anything other than a glancing blow would sever a limb, knock someone unconscious or crush bone.

How do you reconcile a critical hit with a glancing blow?

 

[Guest 85555]

That's the 3e definition. Other versions of the game have defined hit points differently and they include hit point damage as not always being physical damage.

If it is always physical damage why are there no ill effects from that damage. A 10th level fighter suffering a critical hit from a giant with an axe suffers no reprecussions other than to say "I lost some hit points". What?

Ok, how about, even though it was a critical hit the fighter says "That's just a scratch." What? You just lost half your hit points but it was just a scratch?

The force from such an attack if it was anything other than a glancing blow would sever a limb, knock someone unconscious or crush bone.

How do you reconcile a critical hit with a glancing blow?

Well, d20 did have the massive damage rule to address some of these concerns.

 

[Hassassin]

If it is always physical damage why are there no ill effects from that damage. A 10th level fighter suffering a critical hit from a giant with an axe suffers no reprecussions other than to say "I lost some hit points". What?

Because penalties would result in a complex system (see other RPGs) and because adventurers are accustomed to fighting even wounded.

Ok, how about, even though it was a critical hit the fighter says "That's just a scratch." What? You just lost half your hit points but it was just a scratch?

The force from such an attack if it was anything other than a glancing blow would sever a limb, knock someone unconscious or crush bone.

How do you reconcile a critical hit with a glancing blow?

Losing 50% is a serious wound, just not lethal. A crit by a goblin against a 10th level fighter is a lucky or skilled hit that got past the fighter's defenses to do real damage.

Again, this is how I play. There are only a few cases when this thinking breaks down for me in 3e - unconscious characters and healing spells, mostly. I'd like to see those cases fixed rather than even more such things added.

 

[BryonD]

Extremes aside it still seems that 4e tried to give some credance to the fact that not all damage was physical in relation to hit points. Luck, resolve and exhaustion shouldn't take weeks to recover from if you didn't have magical healing available.

That is absolutely a reasonable position.

Here is why it doesn't work for me. And saying why it doesn't work to me in no way implies it is wrong for you.

In your first sentence you said "not all damage was physical". In your second sentence you only listed "luck, resolve, and exhaustion". You left "physical damage" out.

For me I'm going to leave "exhaustion" out. HP don't describe exhaustion in my games. But I accept "physical, luck, resolve, etc..." Just call it "physical" and "karma" with karma covering all of the above non-physical.

Now physical isn't "deadly". It doesn't mean a sword through the head. I'll happily describe a "sword through the head " if it is a killing blow. But for simple HP damage it is cuts, bruises, concussion, strains, etc... A laundry list of things that happen to action heroes all the time and they ignore. I guess it is a little tricky to fully describe in a short text, but it flows very nicely during play.

Karma is even harder to describe. But also actually requires even less description. It just is. It can be as simple a “killing” or “wounding” blow that instead misses altogether. And there is virtually infinite narrative freedom in describing that. But it would be a misunderstanding to say that the “karma” aspect of HP is intended to capture “luck” in its entirety. I can roll a 2 when the hill giant swings his club. And I can describe that as luck. Obviously the hero doesn’t lose any HP for that luck. Farmer Joe has 2HP and the hill giant could miss him. If so, Farmer Joe got lucky. Farmer Joe’s luck has nothing to do with HP, it was just pure luck that anyone could have. Hero Hank has that luck as well. It is always there and it can always fail him. It doesn’t go away and it doesn’t recover.
But Hero Hank also has this “karma”. And when I roll a 14 and the hill giant crushes Farmer Joe’s Head,
Farmer Joe dies. But Hero Hank’s karma keeps his head uncrushed. Maybe he dodged completely out of the way, or maybe he turned and rolled with the blow, taking a massive bruise to his chest. In other words, some portion of the HP loss was “karma” and some portion was “physical”. There is no need to restrict or limit it to one or the other. Either element could be 0 to 100% on a completely open case by case method.
But the point is Hero Hank having a lot more HP than Farmer Joe represents not “luck” or “karma” but a specific flavor of karma that action heroes get above and beyond what the Farmer Joe’s of the world get. And anyone who has ever read a Conan story or watched a James Bond movie can get that.

And everything is rolled into HP. One unit of HP is the same whether it represents come physical damage or it represents karma. And this is nothing new. It is obvious from looking at the mechanics and anyone who reads the 1E DMG should come away with that idea. And it is the same coming and going. Hank’s “Farmer Joe” Karma will be the same every morning. He doesn’t lose it. But his “Hero Karma” recovers at “healing speed”. This is subtle, and brilliant, and excellent.

And the result is that Hero Hank can still have “luck” every day. But if he is the in the woods alone he is going to need a lot of days to be back to 100% from being seriously wounded.

Surges toss this great model aside.