D&D 5E Should 5E have Healing Surges?

[Naszir]

What if heroic surges were allowed every encounter?

Is there no way for a player to come up with a creative way to describe hero/action/fate points? Maybe now that all of their hero/action/fate points are used up they feel more sluggish in combat and it may be a good time to retreat because they don't know if they will be able to avoid the next big attack.

You make it sound like hero/action/fate take the place of hit points but they don't.

 

[Tallifer]

Any mechanical feature can be roleplayed. I learned this from hard experience trying to roleplay in a massively multi-player on-line roleplaying game (Dark Age of Camelot).

The retreat of a party is simple to roleplay under healing surges. "We are exhausted." "We cannot take anymore: I have not got an ounce of strength left in me."

The recovery from certain death is heroic and requires no more suspension of disbelief than when Scully flees through the woods after being shot in the shoulder, kicked, thrown and punched. Mulder slaps awake an unconscious Scully and yells, "Run!" and she starts hobbling off, then it becomes a gasping run, and she keeps it up long enough to reach the road, occasionally stopping to pant dramatically. (Sorry: I may be conflating various memories of countless nonsensical chase scenes from the X Files.) And there is clearly no magic involved.

 

[Izumi]

Fighting a dragon, you might have raised your shield and took smoke inhalation damage. The abstraction is endless. A fall from a high place robs a lot of energy on impact, and perhaps he fell on an outcrop or grabbed a ledge just in time.

For every excuse anybody has come up with to think hp unrealistic, you and I can devise an answer that fits the narrative and verisimilitude within the abstraction.

Now, on to the surges. I dislike the idea that the player gets to decide when to use that second wind as a healing surge. Triggered surges outside the players control that make sense as second winds, during the narrative, fit the abstraction just fine. Power/Action Point stuff...that's what needs to go into the optional bin. In fact, there's no reason not to give any player that pulls back from combat for 1 round a triggered second wind hp gain if another character steps in to protect them. Why not?

 

[Naszir]

Now, on to the surges. I dislike the idea that the player gets to decide when to use that second wind as a healing surge.

Hmm, more player control I would think be a good thing.

 

[Izumi]

Hmm, more player control I would think be a good thing.

Player control is good when they are playing characters and making them do things. It's bad when players are deciding for characters by giving them things they have no knowledge of in the game world.

 

[Naszir]

Player control is good when they are playing characters and making them do things. It's bad when players are deciding for characters by giving them things they have no knowledge of in the game world.

How is a second wind like that? There have been many times that I have played sports where in the middle of the game I have found that extra effort, that second wind. It's completely something that a character could know about.

One thing a character could never know about is how many hit points he or she had. Is that bad?

 

[Hassassin]

One thing a character could never know about is how many hit points he or she had. Is that bad?

Or how many points of strength they have.

The numbers don't matter. Characters should know if they are strong or not, if they are wounded or not. They'll know if they get a second wind of adrenaline.

 

[KarinsDad]

There have been many times that I have played sports where in the middle of the game I have found that extra effort, that second wind.

Well, you don't get hit upside the head with a Longsword in sports.

Tell you what, you stand there while I smack you in the head with a Longsword and then you tell me how plausible it is for you to get that extra effort and stand back up.

 

[JamesonCourage]

The answer to all of this comes down to "because healing surges reflect the physical limits of the person being healed." They represent some physical element that exists in finite quantities that are necessary for healing to take place. Fortunately such a physical element is easy to identify, since such thing exist quite readily in reality. Blood platelets, blood cells, endorphins, adrenaline, ATP, glucose, amino acids, vitamins... Healing surges are an abstract representation of the physical resources the body has available to manage pain and reduce the effect of injury. Abilities that spend a healing surge merely trigger the use of these resources. The fact that the body can easily replenish these resources, even in reality, is also why a good meal and a night's sleep (AKA an extended rest) can bring back healing surges.

While I do appreciate you going to some length to explain your interpretation for me, I don't think it will satisfy the majority of players. I don't like it because it's "magic can heal scrapes and bruises, but not well, and only once, and it doesn't stack with medication, inspiration, healing potions, or anything else." Other people (that like healing surges) won't like it because it requires hit point damage to be physical wounds (which is my preference, once the THP pool is absorbed).

I'm not sure what you mean by "light wounds cannot even be removed", but I will again reiterate: D&D's serious injury rules are nonexistant, and its death and dying rules are terrible. I'm very much in agreement with you there. It's not really applicable to a discussion of healing surges, if you ask me, but I will agree with you.

Well, healing surges are directly tied to death and dying, as is the recovery rate as implemented in the edition in which healing surges are used. You need to spend healing surges to pop out of the negative, or to heal between combats. This can be easily tweaked, though, so you're correct if you're saying that these rules do not necessarily have to be directly tied to healing surges.

I suppose it is never easy to convince somewhat to switch over to your world view... I do appreciate that you've made as much effort as you have in trying to understand out view, though.

Oh, thank you for such a productive and civil conversation. Even if we disagree, I like having the discussion, and hope we both take something away from it, even if it's a little more clarity as to we hold to what we believe.

It is indeed a sad truth that, while game mechanics and stories should not be enemies, any game mechanic will be the enemy of some story. This is why the term "implied setting", despite being overused and misapplied far more times than I can count, is still a useful one. No version of D&D can be all-inclusive of every kind of story. To be honest, I'm not sure if even free-form roleplaying without game rules can be all-inclusive of every kind of story. That is why trying to pursue such all-inclusiveness is probably an impossibility.

All you can do is try to include as much as you can while still providing a high quality of gameplay.

Yes, I agree with you about implied setting. However, I think you can make a game that opens up a lot more stories, while having solid mechanics. I'm not a fan of rampant long range reliable teleportation or divination, and 4e's changes were a great step (compared to 3.X) towards opening up story possibilities. Yes, having those abilities open up some stories, which is why I said I don't like them being rampant and reliable. I think missing out on them (or having limited help, such as speed boosting effects or clues) opens up more story possibilities.

 

[Izumi]

It's not a matter of knowing you have a second wind. It's a matter of you deciding for your character that now is the time for it. Triggered is fine. It's the decision outside the game to have it that rubs people the wrong way, I think. You as a human playing sports might get a second wind, but that's not because the guy upstairs playing you said now's the time, right?