D&D 5E Should 5E have Healing Surges?

[BryonD]

With respect, it also represented a wound which vanished after a few glugs of Healing Potion. That also challenges realism.

I find characters carrying bandoleers of Healing Potions, or a stack of Wands of Cure Light Wounds detracts from my verisimilitude.

I would like the adventurers I DM to have inner reserves of determination to recover from battles, without needing magic at all.

"Realism" is always a buzz word. So I'm going to ignore the implications there and just respond to general point.

The 10 HP represent 10 units of damage and 10 units of healing needed. There are lots of conversion factors that may then be applied. But he needs 10 units of healing. The fighter may think of it as two night rest. He may also think of it as two healing potions. He may also think about in terms of cleric cast CMWs. But those are all simply feet, meters, and cubits.

When you say it breaks your verisimilitude you are simply not using the word correctly. You may HATE the implicit setting it creates. And it may completely disrupt your suspension of disbelief to have a guy walking around with a bunch of potions. But the verisimilitude is still there. It remains self consistent and internally logical.

And WotC needs to understand you won't play a game you hate and they need to solve that problem for you or fail at their goal.


But at the same time, for me personally I can easily see why someone would hate perpetual wands and potions. But it is hard for me to see how someone with that point of view can turn around and be ok with a fighter popping back to full health overnight, no matter what happened the day before "just because".

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That is where the argument of the other side breaks down conceptually.

No hit point damage is actual damage UNLESS the PC dies. Even unconsciousness is not being damaged, nor is running out of healing surges being damaged.

PCs never get damaged at all in 4E unless they die. The worse thing that happens to them shy of death is that they run out of healing surges, are unconscious and stable, but then magically spring back up complete un-phased the next day.

No, this is NOT the argument. The argument is that being somewhat wounded isn't an automatic reduction in your effectiveness as a combatant. You can have a minor wound and be JUST AS EFFECTIVE for a period of time as you were the moment you stepped onto the field of battle. Wounds in the real world simply aren't linearly cumulative and hit points are a simplistic mechanism that doesn't take this into account at all.

When the warlord psyches up the fighter, that fighter is in some way MORE dangerous than he was before. Sure, maybe he's bleeding now and at some point he might be in trouble, but THIS FIGHT is only going to last a short time. Afterwards presumably people get patched up and summon more will to go on. I don't think 4e's concept is overall MORE 'realistic' than anything from previous editions, but it does let you model things that old-style linear hit points don't. Thus the argument is and should be only focused on which makes a more fun game to play.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ahhhh...I can't agree with that 100%, and I'm no fan of Surges.

While I am like many who don't like them as is, I also know that many of the 4Ed fans think they're the greatest thing since delivery pizza. Beyond that, I can see ways in which they could be incorporated...and in fact, proposed a way in which they could work upthread, namely:



Now, there wasn't much discussion of it from the pro-HS side*, but several people who dislike HSes as is thought my suggestion was a reasonable compromise, since it addresses many of the concerns some players have with HSes, but still leaves some form of cinematic, substantial healing available to the PCs in the absence of a cleric (or other leaders, if that mechanism persists- and I see little evidence that it won't).

And I am in no way a professional game designer.










* who might feel it is too weak, and thus unacceptable.

Yeah, I don't know if it is "too weak" or not really. I think that can only be evaluated in the context of the whole game design. I think there are always possible systems that reduce the durability of PCs and still allow for something like Second Wind and inspiration. I don't know if those options will satisfy everyone on either side, but we're just going to have to see.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The debates will persist. But, IMO, you are significantly off-base with the significance there.

Yes, there were and are intense debates about HP. But the thing is, these are all debates amongst people who enjoy a game that uses hit points. So suggesting that the debates indicate a fundamental flaw in not accurate.

Except of course your sample is self-selecting. All the people who really had serious issues with it either hacked the system or stopped playing D&D. You can say it is better to "just go back to what worked" but there's a pretty substantial number of us for whom it never worked all that well. There are a LOT of people out here that dropped entirely off the D&D bandwagon and are now playing and running 4e. There's not any 'reuniting' for us that involves going back to the old days. That isn't a way forward, it is a way right back to a split fanbase.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

The problem here is your premise that assumes that the warlord was healing actual blood loss and physical health, when in fact he is healing moral, energy, etc. The cleric can also very well be healing abstract wounds and not strictly open gashes.

I know it's easier/sometimes funner for the DM to say "the arrow hits you in the knee" but the fact is that that wouldn't be very representative of actual combat where an arrow to the knee would incapacitate you and lead to a whole new set of penalty mechanics.

Anyways all to say that HP have been an abstraction since long before 4e, most of you had just never really taken the time to think about it is all.

I wouldn't say they have all been an abstraction in previous editions because when a cleric healed you it was assumed that he was actually closing your wounds. When you would rest it was assumed that there was some bandaging going on but if you took massive amounts of damage, you would have to wait a long time if you didn't have a cleric or potions to heal you.

Now what the Warlord and Healing Surges did was cement that abstraction to a point where it started to seem a bit silly.

Healing Word Cleric Feature
You whisper a brief prayer as divine light washes over your target,
helping to mend its wounds.
Encounter (Special) ✦ Divine, Healing
Special: You can use this power twice per encounter, but only
once per round. At 16th level, you can use this power three
times per encounter.
Minor Action Close burst 5
(10 at 11th level, 15 at 21st level)
Target: You or one ally
Effect: The target can spend a healing surge and regain an
additional 1d6 hit points.
Increase the amount of additional hit points regained to 2d6
at 6th level, 3d6 at 11th level, 4d6 at 16th level, 5d6 at
21st level, and 6d6 at 26th level.

Here is the cleric's Healing Word power from 4th edition. Now Healing Word says that it uses divine light to mend wounds.

Inspiring Word Warlord Feature
You call out to a wounded ally and offer inspiring words of courage
and determination that helps that ally heal.
Encounter (Special) ✦ Martial, Healing
Special: You can use this power twice per encounter, but only
once per round. At 16th level, you can use inspiring word
three times per encounter.
Minor Action Close burst 5
(10 at 11th level, 15 at 21st level)
Target: You or one ally in burst
Effect: The target can spend a healing surge and regain an
additional 1d6 hit points.
The amount of additional hit points regained is 2d6 at 6th
level, 3d6 at 11th level, 4d6 at 16th level, 5d6 at 21st level,
and 6d6 at 26th level.

Now here is the Inspiring Word power from the Warlord in 4th edition. Now it states that this is used by giving a PC words of encouragement to help them heal. Now it sounds to me like the Warlord's words actually have some kind of supernatural power much like the Bard. Now if this is not the intention and the Warlord's Inspiring Word is meant to give that player courage in order to get them up and keep fighting because his wounds are abstract then there is a bit of a disconnect.

If it's the latter then here is where I have the problem. Let's say you have a Cleric and a Warlord in your party. You have lost a lot of HP and you need to regain some. Well the cleric says that he is coming to help you but something happens and he needs to help someone else. The Warlord then says that he would be able to help you instead. Now if the Cleric was coming to help you would your HP loss actually be wounds but suddenly turn into abstract wounds now that the Warlord is coming to help you?

 

[ForeverSlayer]

But at the same time, for me personally I can easily see why someone would hate perpetual wands and potions. But it is hard for me to see how someone with that point of view can turn around and be ok with a fighter popping back to full health overnight, no matter what happened the day before "just because".

Let alone being back to full after only five minutes of using healing surges. You could have someone who was on the brink of death five minutes earlier because an ogre beat them down but be back up and ready to go just by using Healing Surges. I found it more believable when it was the cleric, or any other type caster, and healing potions, or magical items etc that actually did the healing.

Instead of fighting with regards to healing surges and their use, I suddenly see PC's wielding foam weapons and everyone running around tapping each other until they run out of breath then they rest for 5 minutes and are ready to go for more.

 

[BryonD]

Except of course your sample is self-selecting. All the people who really had serious issues with it either hacked the system or stopped playing D&D.

and we are talking about 5E which is defined as an attempt to reunite the D&D fan base.

I'm self-selecting by the same criteria that WotC has advertised their target market for this game.

That is a good approach.

You can say it is better to "just go back to what worked" but there's a pretty substantial number of us for whom it never worked all that well. There are a LOT of people out here that dropped entirely off the D&D bandwagon and are now playing and running 4e. There's not any 'reuniting' for us that involves going back to the old days. That isn't a way forward, it is a way right back to a split fanbase.

Reality doesn't have your back here.

Yes, there are X number of players out there that exactly fit your description. But if X was a big enough number to keep WotC happy, then we would not be discussing 5E in 2012.

I *KNOW* WotC wants YOU as a fan of 5E. They are going to try very hard to make you and me both happy. That is a good thing. But don't overplay your hand on the popularity of 4E (and even moreso the sub niche of 4E fans who DID happily play 3E, and as 4E fans used to gleefully point out, is a big chunck). The dirty secret is that if WotC could guarantee that they would get back as big a fan base as they had for 3E but doing it would cost them every new fan 4E brought in, then they would do it.

I also certainly agree with you that there is a serious risk of continued or even further split fanbase. I'll still be impressed if they can find a way to avoid it. The 4E fan base has been very specifically catered to, at the expense of everyone else. A chunk of that fan base is not going to respond well to being just part of the crowd again.
I'm not saying we won't go on to see more or worse split fan base.

But I am saying that overrating the 4E appeal will make it WORSE.


And doing the things that CREATED the split certainly won't be the way to fix it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

If it's the latter then here is where I have the problem. Let's say you have a Cleric and a Warlord in your party. You have lost a lot of HP and you need to regain some. Well the cleric says that he is coming to help you but something happens and he needs to help someone else. The Warlord then says that he would be able to help you instead. Now if the Cleric was coming to help you would your HP loss actually be wounds but suddenly turn into abstract wounds now that the Warlord is coming to help you?

Why are you assuming that all cleric healing is closing wounds? Cannot the power of the god infuse someone with more will to fight, some extra luck, etc? I don't think that's far fetched.

Likewise I think the assumption that a guy with a minor wound or two cannot be as durable and effective as one who has none isn't necessarily absolute either. With enough inspiration people can do a lot of things. Just because the fighter got wounded doesn't mean that wound MUST be closed up to make him equally effective again for a period of time.

There's plenty of room to consider what level of refreshes are possible, etc. I'd be concerned though if only clerics could really give a PC some way to get back into shape to go on beyond the current fight. People have proposed using THP for 'inspiration', but what happens afterwards? If you don't have those bandoleers of potions or Mr Cleric then it isn't going to work, and that was exactly what a lot of us were tired of. Maybe something can be worked out, but I don't know.

 

[BryonD]

No, this is NOT the argument.

That isn't the entire argument.

But to be clear the EXACT point was made in this thread that the problem with HP was that everyone just takes non-lethal damage and then dies of a heart attack.

And that DOES capture the essence of the whole "HP are bad so we should just accept surges" argument.

 

[MoxieFu]

Except of course your sample is self-selecting. All the people who really had serious issues with it either hacked the system or stopped playing D&D. You can say it is better to "just go back to what worked" but there's a pretty substantial number of us for whom it never worked all that well. There are a LOT of people out here that dropped entirely off the D&D bandwagon and are now playing and running 4e. There's not any 'reuniting' for us that involves going back to the old days. That isn't a way forward, it is a way right back to a split fanbase.

There's a little thing at the top of this page you might want to check out called a poll.

Reality seems to differ with you.