D&D 5E Should 5E have Healing Surges?

[JamesonCourage]

Not really. A doctor can aid or even speed up a patient's recovery, but they can't make that healing instantaneous in extreme cases. I prefer the same interpretation for magical healing - it makes it less cheap and more meaningful, in my mind.

Well, I understand the want of this, but it's not inherently more "realistic". Magical healing has historically been instantaneous in D&D, and I assume that's the approach that will be taken.

But hey, I'm all for it taking longer than 6 hours to get everything back. That's a pretty arbitrary divide for magic to make, though. You can magically heal someone, and they'll be better after 6 hours of rest, no matter how long it takes to get that rest. Until then, nothing can heal you (you have no healing surges to spend).

That's pretty odd. It's not realistic (except for "it's magic", but even this is a really weird effect of magic). It is good for pacing, and potentially good for certain gamist concerns, though.

Note that I'm fine with magical healing working better than regular healing, but I think there is as much a need for a hard cap on its effectiveness as there is for mundane healing.

I'd rather see the divide I mentioned earlier in the thread, but I see no reason to hard cap either one. As long as there's no way to abuse it, it should be okay. Just keep people from abusing it by not making it an option. That is, don't have super cheap wands of healing, at-will heals, or the like.

That is, if that's your design goal. I've found that at-will healing doesn't make for a worse game at high level in my RPG. They're powerful enough to keep going if they live through it and have time to patch up. So, it doesn't bug me when it happens.

Though personally, I don't much like combat healing anyways. I prefer a "don't get hit" or "absorb the damage" approach to magic. Warding against attacks, and the like. I feel like that is much more prominent in fantasy than "I got hit, then got healed, then got hit, then got healed" and so on. Obvious the word "hit" is a moving target definition-wise, but I hope the point is clear (since "healing" usually means "healing").

Anyways, thanks for the reply. I definitely understand your preference, and sympathize to some degree. It's why I didn't vote "no" to healing surges in the poll As always, play what you like

 

[Dannager]

Not to quibble, but isn't that normally how you accessed Healing Surges, by taking a short rest (i.e. stopping to catch your breath, bind your wounds et c.) or by being healed either via potion or spell?

But that would make too much sense!

 

[harlokin]

I wouldn't mind all magical healing being somewhat temporary, and everybody needing to use mundane methods of healing to recover from wounds permanently.

 

[frankthedm]

Definitely no healing surges. Damage should be significant and Healing should not be an entitlement. HP don't need to go up and down like a yo-yo.

 

[Nivenus]

Well, I understand the want of this, but it's not inherently more "realistic". Magical healing has historically been instantaneous in D&D, and I assume that's the approach that will be taken.

But hey, I'm all for it taking longer than 6 hours to get everything back. That's a pretty arbitrary divide for magic to make, though. You can magically heal someone, and they'll be better after 6 hours of rest, no matter how long it takes to get that rest. Until then, nothing can heal you (you have no healing surges to spend).

That's pretty odd. It's not realistic (except for "it's magic", but even this is a really weird effect of magic). It is good for pacing, and potentially good for certain gamist concerns, though.

FWIW, I never actually said "realistic." It's verisimilitude, as I see it, rather than realism. Obviously priests IRL don't actually go around casting "cure minor wounds" on people. But I think that magic works best if it feels granular and meaningful. It's the same reason I'm not overly fond of settings where even a low to mid-level wizard's chores are as easy as casting a minor enchantment spell.

Granted, there are certain limits to this insofar as D&D is concerned, as spellcasting has always been portrayed as quite easy in D&D. But I think little bits and pieces like a cap on magical healing blend in quite nicely.

Though personally, I don't much like combat healing anyways. I prefer a "don't get hit" or "absorb the damage" approach to magic. Warding against attacks, and the like. I feel like that is much more prominent in fantasy than "I got hit, then got healed, then got hit, then got healed" and so on. Obvious the word "hit" is a moving target definition-wise, but I hope the point is clear (since "healing" usually means "healing").

I actually prefer this to and would in my own system probably give healing spells as a mid to high-level reward, long after protection spells and the like have been already handed out. But that's obviously outside of normal for D&D and doesn't really mesh with the game's interpretation of magic.

Anyways, thanks for the reply. I definitely understand your preference, and sympathize to some degree. It's why I didn't vote "no" to healing surges in the poll As always, play what you like

Indeed. And I'm similarly cool with people not using surges if they'd rather not.

EDIT:

The idea of two hit point scales is not something I'd be opposed to at all and sounds pretty similar to what the original version of SW D20 had, with Wound Points and Vitality.

You could even do what that game did and have Wound Points equate to Constitution directly, with Hit Points / Vitality representing something more abstract or distinct from health.

 

[SensoryThought]

While I appreciate the intent of healing surges and I think they are mechanically balanced I have the same problem as them and hp - they are both such abstract concepts the very nature of wounds and healing has always been more like a game than a simulation.

To agree with prior posts, I think the dragonquest model of having both fatigue & endurance (real injuries) would be better. Warlords and other temporary hp gains could affect fatigue while real healing would affect injuries. All hits would take off fatigue first (except maybe critical hits) and when that was zero you could start taking real damage.

Of course, that is not what will happen (hps are quintessential to D&D), but that would be my preferred model.

 

[JamesonCourage]

FWIW, I never actually said "realistic." It's verisimilitude, as I see it, rather than realism. Obviously priests IRL don't actually go around casting "cure minor wounds" on people. But I think that magic works best if it feels granular and meaningful. It's the same reason I'm not overly fond of settings where even a low to mid-level wizard's chores are as easy as casting a minor enchantment spell.

This is a fair point. I replied to Tallifer, who used the word "realistic". I apologize for bringing it to our conversation if it doesn't belong.

However, I also wouldn't consider slow magical healing closer to "verisimilitude" than instantaneous healing. I could see either making sense. I prefer the former, honestly, but they're about the same from a believability standpoint (to me, at least... funny how that changes from person to person).

Granted, there are certain limits to this insofar as D&D is concerned, as spellcasting has always been portrayed as quite easy in D&D. But I think little bits and pieces like a cap on magical healing blend in quite nicely.

I could see it, but it strains my suspension of disbelief more than no caps. I could definitely make my peace with it, I think, but it's really not my preference. It doesn't feel... intuitive, to me, on a personal level. It's all subjective, though.

I actually prefer this to and would in my own system probably give healing spells as a mid to high-level reward, long after protection spells and the like have been already handed out. But that's obviously outside of normal for D&D and doesn't really mesh with the game's interpretation of magic.

Yep. Since I play my own RPG, I get to make warding attacks more rewarding that healing in combat (especially since you can reactively ward), but I don't expect D&D to take this route.

Indeed. And I'm similarly cool with people not using surges if they'd rather not.

EDIT:

The idea of two hit point scales is not something I'd be opposed to at all and sounds pretty similar to what the original version of SW D20 had, with Wound Points and Vitality.

You could even do what that game did and have Wound Points equate to Constitution directly, with Hit Points / Vitality representing something more abstract or distinct from health.

I've heard that system brought up a few times, and while I've never used it or looked much into it, I think it's probably fairly close in implementation. I think there's a much higher chance of that being a variant or option than my system, and I might really like it. I'll probably look into it at some point.

Thanks for the conversation. I love civility As always, play what you like

 

[SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS]

D&D really needs differentiate the "heroic luck" part of the HPs from the "wounds", it would make this kind of discussion easier.

 

[DonAdam]

I don't foresee a wounds/vitality system as core, but hopefully they'll have a good one in a module.

To echo what Oni said above: as long as there are no wands of cure light and the cleric isn't necessary. I like healing surges because they got rid of those two things. If there's another solution that makes non-4e players happy go for it.

 

[Connorsrpg]

Again, I go to my fav d20 edition; Saga. Although Second Wind is different from Healing surges, I liked the way Second Wind worked in SW Saga. (1/day). With the extra option of benefitting from a med kit 1/day. (This could be the magical healing in dnd, but I wouldn't limit its use as severely as a med kit).

I am certainly not a fan of a large number of surges and making them so easily accessible. However, the 'reset button' after an extended rest was even worse. Certainly not how we play the game. All these great wounds and conditions seem to just disappear. Been stung by a scorpion - how long does that hang around? Now try a freakin' 8ft scorpion and tell me being hit with its stinger and poison isn't going to irritate for a while. (Of course I am open to magic removing this, but not catching breath or shaking off that poison in a matter of seconds).

Also, it is hard to run wilderness and exploration encounters, where there is no fight after fight. Each day's fight may as well be skipped, as at the end, everyone is back to full.