Level Up (A5E) Should AD&D5E remove simple/martial weapon category as exotic weapons were removed from 5E?

[Minigiant]

but what is the point? Just complicating stuff.

It is to state whether a character is trained to use the weapon effectively or not.

To me, the categories are not about power but who is trained in what.

Basic requires no training.
Simple is basic militia training and self defense
Martial is military training.
Exotic is regional military training.
Advanced is special or hard to obtain training.

If your fighter never being to the deserts, he wouldn't know how to use their "khopesh on a stick".
Otherwse why do we keep wizards from wielding greatswords?

 

[Undrave]

I think there's kind of two ways we can go about changing this. Either accept that 5e has made weapon choice basically irrelevant, and remove the rest of the miniscule distinctions by eliminating the simple/martial distinction. We could then basically just have a 13th age system where there are 6 kinds of weapons, d4, d6, d8 one handed-weapons, and d6, d8, d10 two handed weapons. (Adjust the numbers as needed for 5e).

Or we could go in the other direction and create a tag system to make weapons an interesting part of your character. Then we could have weapons with real distinctions between them, and keep the simple/martial distinction as a way of limiting certain tags from classes you don't want having access to more powerful melee weapons.

In between these are keeping it as is (a pretend choice you make during chargen), or maybe adding strength or dex requirements for certain weapons.

Personally I like the idea of making weapons matter again by creating a tag system, both because it provides an actual weapon balancing mechanic and can help to balance ranged vs melee as discussed in another thread.
I know tag systems are anathema to some people, but honestly I think that's silly. DnD's weapon lists have always had weird idiosyncrasies that didn't do them any favors, and we should try to fix that.

I agree.

I think there should be more characteristics, like the 4e 'Brutal' and 'High Crit' and 'Defensive'.

Brutal means you re-roll your damage die if it falls on the Brutal number (1 or 2), High Crit would add an additional die to critical hits (I'm thinking it would e more granular, like High Crit D6, High Crit D8, etc instead of the actual weapon damage), and Defensive gives +1 AC when wielded, either off-hand for smaller weapons or two-handed for the bigger ones.

Add a few more to it too, maybe ones that add conditions on critical hits?

Then you could have Simple Weapons with no characteristics, Martial Weapons with 1 tag, and Exotic/Advanced with 2 tags.

That way, you weapon choice would matter... And I think the proficiency of Advanced weapon should be linked to background or sub-class features, not be a basic class bit, so picking a feat to gain access to them (among other benefits, mind you, weapon prof alone sucks) could be worth it for Martial Classes too.

 

[Horwath]

If your fighter never being to the deserts, he wouldn't know how to use their "khopesh on a stick".
Otherwse why do we keep wizards from wielding greatswords?

khopesh is a bad version of an arming sword, but it is essentially a same weapon. A onehanded slashing weapon that can also trust.

why do we keep wizards from greatswords?
I don't know, ask someone in the 70's that came up with that idea

 

[Zaukrie]

It is to state whether a character is trained to use the weapon effectively or not.

To me, the categories are not about power but who is trained in what.

Basic requires no training.
Simple is basic militia training and self defense
Martial is military training.
Exotic is regional military training.
Advanced is special or hard to obtain training.

If your fighter never being to the deserts, he wouldn't know how to use their "khopesh on a stick".
Otherwse why do we keep wizards from wielding greatswords?

So, a wizard that goes into combat over and over ......for years on end.....can they use simple weapons? If not, that seems silly to me. Heck, would a wizard that expect to adventure, even at level 1, wouldn't they do some self defense training?

If Level Up is going to alter weapons, I hope they do so to make the game more fun, interesting, and for choices to matter.....but I'm ok if they don't, and the choices are about story and fluff, and not mechanics.....

 

[Minigiant]

khopesh is a bad version of an arming sword, but it is essentially a same weapon. A onehanded slashing weapon that can also trust.

I said khopesh on a stick. Like the favored weapon of Settra, Great King, the Imperishable, Khemrikhara, The Great King of Nehekhara, King of Kings, Opener of the Way, Wielder of the Divine Flame, Punisher of Nomads, The Great Unifier, Commander of the Golden Legion, Sacred of Appearance, Bringer of Light, Father of Hawks, Builder of Cities, Protector of the Two Worlds, Keeper of the Hours, Chosen of Ptra, High Steward of the Horizon, Sailor of the Great Vitae, Sentinel of the Two Realms, The Undisputed, Begetter of the Begat, Scourge of the Faithless, Carrion-feeder,...

And that brings up the other problem....What do you name all these weapons?
It's one thing to say that we should have a 1dX that has Y and Z. But what do ya name it.

You KNOW what's going to happen once you targ one of the spreadsheet weapons as katana.

So, a wizard that goes into combat over and over ......for years on end.....can they use simple weapons? If not, that seems silly to me. Heck, would a wizard that expect to adventure, even at level 1, wouldn't they do some self defense training?

If Level Up is going to alter weapons, I hope they do so to make the game more fun, interesting, and for choices to matter.....but I'm ok if they don't, and the choices are about story and fluff, and not mechanics.....

Well that's what feats and multiclassing are for.
If your wizard wants to use a greatsword, they take a feat. They spend their time in the magical library. Using martial weapons should come at a cost.

 

[Cadence]

And that brings up the other problem....What do you name all these weapons?
It's one thing to say that we should have a 1dX that has Y and Z. But what do name it.

You KNOW what's going to happen once you targ one of the spreadsheet weapons as katana.

This thread is making me want to put aside work for today and pull out my copy of the Palladium "The Compendium of Weapons, Armour & Castles"....

 

[Horwath]

I said khopesh on a stick. Like the favored weapon of Settra, Great King, the Imperishable, Khemrikhara, The Great King of Nehekhara, King of Kings, Opener of the Way, Wielder of the Divine Flame, Punisher of Nomads, The Great Unifier, Commander of the Golden Legion, Sacred of Appearance, Bringer of Light, Father of Hawks, Builder of Cities, Protector of the Two Worlds, Keeper of the Hours, Chosen of Ptra, High Steward of the Horizon, Sailor of the Great Vitae, Sentinel of the Two Realms, The Undisputed, Begetter of the Begat, Scourge of the Faithless, Carrion-feeder,...

that would be a bardiche, maybe kind of glaive
2handed weapon, reach, maybe heavy...

And that brings up the other problem....What do you name all these weapons?
It's one thing to say that we should have a 1dX that has Y and Z. But what do ya name it.

what ever you want

You KNOW what's going to happen once you targ one of the spreadsheet weapons as katana.

1 handed, 1d10, versatile 1d12

if it is a little longer, it can be basic 2Handed, 2d6 damage
even longer is nodashi; 2Handed, heavy, 2d8

Well that's what feats and multiclassing are for.
If your wizard wants to use a greatsword, they take a feat. They spend their time in the magical library. Using martial weapons should come at a cost.

or make all proficient with all weapons
and get rid of horrible feats.

 

[Micah Sweet]

#1 I feel very strongly a 5e with more crunch game is not going to simplify the weapon system, nor should it. That's the province of an independent game designer's fantasy heartbreaker.

#2 Mage Hand Press has a Craftsman class which includes a wide variety of exotic weapons, and new simple and martial weapons with new properties. The exotics are superior weapons, and generally speaking you feat into them. Complete Craftsman. It's a pretty good system.

 

[tetrasodium]

I think this discussion will get a whole lot more interesting when we get some details on what "Mechanically distinctive weapons and armor" includes. In the mean time though it's almost certain to exclude getting rid of weapon categories orsome analogue & taking 5e's weapon (over)simplification a step further

@Minigiant That's a category that might need to exist & there are settings that would or should use it for some stuff such as eberron ormaybe sigil & splljammer. Whatever they plonk in there beside magical power armor, but it should avoid just being "magic versions of other weapon groups"

Right. Traditionally D&D wizards have had a few weapons like the 3.5(?) page you show. 2e had dagger, staff, dart, knive, and sling, 1e is just dagger, dart, staff (proficient in one of at first level). So they've always had some weapon proficiency.

The 3.5 club, dagger, light/heavy xbow, & quarterstaff. was perfect for the system at the timeFeats and multiclassing are what you need to get more. Add to it something like these

• Layered spellcasting: Beginning at 5th level, you can cast two cantrips(for lack of a better word currently), instead of once, whenever you take the cast a cantrip action on your turn. The number of increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class. and rebalance cantrips accordingly
• rod(1h): This mace-like 1h focus item allows you can deliver touch spells associated with the element or school of the rod without provoking an opportunity attack.
• wand(1h): This focus item can be quickly equipped in an off hand but reduces ac by -2 while held in a ready state
• Orb(1h): When casting cone spells with an orb you gain the benefit of the cone's range/width being extended by 50%
• staff(2h): You are able to cast the cantrip associated with each staff's element or school without using a spell slot & use the damage or effect of casting with a staff when casting spells
• Make some of those needlessly concentrate short duration fire & forget/short range spells get a hex-like move or somehow enhance it for $duration that counts as a cantrip while you maintain concentration.

Why would a wizard need to care about his performance with a short sword spear & greatclub when he's trying to decide between starting with* a risian pine staff that allows him to cast ray of frost with the reduce speed to half rather than -10 & frostbite in a 5ft radius from a point rather than a ray or a fernian ash staff that lets him cast a firebolt that explodes to hit everything within a 5 ft radius from a point?

*Just a simple broad stroke example not a fully fleshed out & well considered system.

 

[Minigiant]

that would be a bardiche, maybe kind of glaive
2handed weapon, reach, maybe heavy...

Maybe. But the point is whether a cleric or fighter who need saw a khopesh or shuriken in their life should be able to just pick it up off a dead foe and use it properly without penalty.

@Minigiant That's a category that might need to exist & there are settings that would or should use it for some stuff such as eberron ormaybe sigil & splljammer. Whatever they plonk in there beside magical power armor, but it should avoid just being "magic versions of other weapon groups"

Yeah. I'm not doing the "Exotic is better" mentality of 3e.

I just think they should be a separate catergory for weapons that a military organization, normal weapons tutor, or war based culture would not train their warriors. I'd be okay with there being a fighting style that just gives you Exotic weapons proficiency. However I don't think the regional and universal should be lumped together.

I only added advanced for the "numbers go up" and for advanced technology/magical weapons. For DMs with firearms, power fists, and lightsabers in their world.

I think this discussion will get a whole lot more interesting when we get some details on what "Mechanically distinctive weapons and armor" includes. In the mean time though it's almost certain to exclude getting rid of weapon categories orsome analogue & taking 5e's weapon (over)simplification a step further

My guess it's just more weapons and armors. 5e really simplified things. And D&D was already weird on how it handled them.