D&D (2024) Should Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade be in the new PHB?

[tetrasodium]

Daily classes have way more swingy effect and can easily take all the spotlight with a single spell slot used judiciously.

We were talking about the rules and mechanics related short rest fueled 5mwd that came up as a result of bizarrely out of place accusations made to distract from talk of rules and mechanics related to why booming blade and GFB are badly designed.

You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about something that happened in your games. Aside from the Monk, the short rest class are fine pushing through an ordinary encounter without their full ressources in my experience. I suppose it would be better if they could handle 6 encounters back to back, but, really, once they're out of juice the encounters would just end up being the same slog over and over so I'm not sure how great that would be either. Just a Warlock plunking away with Eldritch Blast for 4 encounters while the Fighter swings his sword and forces the Cleric to just spend all their spell slot on healing to keep them topped off enough to keep going, losing any versatility they might have had with their spells otherwise.

Basically the rest schedule sucks, and everything would be better with 10 min short rests.

You seem incapable of discussing mechanics without making accusations or calling upon Internet wisdom like

Spoiler: this

classes being able to outshine the short rest one because nobody does 6 encounters a day.

That cuts both ways. Did something happen in a game to create that chip where you would ask if fighting styles should apply to a specific cantrips even though there are no fighting styles that apply to cantrips? Did someone say no to you wanting another short rest to create these more recent accusations? If anything you've shown how high a bad 5e presents a GM who says no to a player before the GM is not met with players who are certain they are being unfairly wronged.

 

[Undrave]

Did something happen in a game to create that chip where you would ask if fighting styles should apply to a specific cantrips even though there are no fighting styles that apply to cantrips?

What chip? Fighting styles apply to weapon attacks, why wouldn't they apply to the one made as part of GFB and BB?

Did someone say no to you wanting another short rest to create these more recent accusations?

No? I always take the situation into account before taking a short rest into account and I always ask the other players if we can take a short rest, should the situation allow it, before I go 'nova' with my short rest ressources. I've played a Bard, a Druid and a Monk in the same campaign and I've always been careful with my ressouces... but the Monk is terrible and is nearly impossible to pace properly. I've also played in the Adventure League back in the early 5e and balancing rests was something we all tried to balance together

Look, I'm sorry, but you're clearly having an experience nobody else here shares with the short rest classes. To me, the Melee Cantrips are just 4e At-Wills with the Arcane and Weapon keywords. The gish classes NEED actions that can merge magic and martial prowess otherwise they're not really a hybrid of both.

 

[tetrasodium]

What chip?

Well since you have no trouble ascribing motive for rules interpretations to me for this and a few other posts, obviously the one that makes you feel so comfortable doing so about how some GM you don't play with.

Fighting styles apply to weapon attacks, why wouldn't they apply to the one made as part of GFB and BB?

That doesn't apply to booming blade or gfb. "You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you" you need a fighting style that applies to cantrips because the casting time is "1-action" and you don't generally have a second action to use for making a weapon attack

No? I always take the situation into account before taking a short rest into account and I always ask the other players if we can take a short rest, should the situation allow it, before I go 'nova' with my short rest ressources. I've played a Bard, a Druid and a Monk in the same campaign and I've always been careful with my ressouces... but the Monk is terrible and is nearly impossible to pace properly. I've also played in the Adventure League back in the early 5e and balancing rests was something we all tried to balance together

As I said before you ratcheted up the accusations, the situation is "a group of 4-5 with 2-3 warlock/monk PCs". Under that very clear situation the answer is always 100% going to be "yes" or "I guess " unless fiat is used by the gm to stomp it

Look, I'm sorry, but you're clearly having an experience nobody else here shares with the short rest classes. To me, the Melee Cantrips are just 4e At-Wills with the Arcane and Weapon keywords. The gish classes NEED actions that can merge magic and martial prowess otherwise they're not really a hybrid of both.

4e at wills are a 4e thing, we are talking about 5e. Subclass is the place for a fish to develop "actions that can merge magic and martial", cantrips are a general purpose design space that is no more fitting that the martial weapons section of the weapons table for "actions that can merge magic and martial". Your repeated shift away from to talking about rules to making claims about game experience and motivation in order to avoid talk of poorly designed and poorly written sections actually says quite a lot about how poorly some of these elements are designed.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

What features would make the Eldritch Knight more appealing?

Spellstrike or something similar like the smite type spells from paladin and ranger.

I want an elemental warrior wielding a blade of fire or ice or lightning. Not a fighter who casts a cantrip once per turn.

 

[Kurotowa]

Spellstrike or something similar like the smite type spells from paladin and ranger.

I want an elemental warrior wielding a blade of fire or ice or lightning. Not a fighter who casts a cantrip once per turn.

I'll be blunt. The way 5e is structured, you're going to need a brand new class for that. A Fighter subclass like the Eldritch Knight doesn't have the room for it. You're talking about something completely different than the usual deal, and Fighter subclasses just aren't that transformative.

 

[tetrasodium]

What features would make the Eldritch Knight more appealing?

The EL is a fighter who dabbles in arcane stuff for like 4 out of 20 levels. The smite type stuff that @Frozen_Heart mentioned could be a start... -but- Ek shouldn't just be "paladin but arcane & fighter subclass".

Fortunately there is one setting known for elite soldiers with arcane training. That setting also has two different forms of arcane spellcasting that provide very different flavor both from each other and from a regular spellcaster who might throw out many of the same spells like wizard sorcerer or even bard.


Those two styles (preserving & defiling) are found in darksun alongside the elite forces commanded by the Sorcerer Kings providing ample inspiration for an EK that's not just an arcane smite machine or fractional caster wizard with beefy martial roots.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'll be blunt. The way 5e is structured, you're going to need a brand new class for that. A Fighter subclass like the Eldritch Knight doesn't have the room for it. You're talking about something completely different than the usual deal, and Fighter subclasses just aren't that transformative.

I think the best way is probably to start with the Pact of the Blade warlock and make some Lifedrinker alternatives.

 

[Morrus]

They’re already in books. Does it matter which book they’re in? Unless you’re saying they need changing I don’t see why they need to be in the new PHB.

 

[Kurotowa]

I think the best way is probably to start with the Pact of the Blade warlock and make some Lifedrinker alternatives.

I mean, the UA7 Blade Pact gives you the choice of damage type between physical, Radiant, Necrotic, or Psychic. It's not an elemental warrior. but it's definitely a magical warrior. And if you want to add a more elemental flavor to that, well, talk to your DM about acquiring a signature magic item in the style of a Frostbrand or Flametongue.

I know that the 5e DMG claims that magic items aren't required, and the white room theorycrafters tend to ignore them, but I remain firm in the opinion that magic gear is a core part of the martial character. They're supposed to have a powerful signature magic weapon. To deny that is to erase both a major part of the character fantasy and a key axis for growth and customization.

 

[Undrave]

That doesn't apply to booming blade or gfb. "You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you" you need a fighting style that applies to cantrips because the casting time is "1-action" and you don't generally have a second action to use for making a weapon attack

Fighting styles apply to any weapon attack. They can work on off hand attack, they can work on opportunity attack, they can work with actions granted by someone else, the action type doesn't matter. Why WOULDN'T they work with the attack part of the Cantrip? It's usually a very VERY poor bonus of like...1 or 2 damage.

As I said before you ratcheted up the accusations, the situation is "a group of 4-5 with 2-3 warlock/monk PCs". Under that very clear situation the answer is always 100% going to be "yes" or "I guess " unless fiat is used by the gm to stomp it

Well the campaign I mentionned had a Warlock too. It was usually the group's Paladin who would ask if we needed a short rest.

Why would you need 'fiat' to prevent a short rest when the story can provide the impetus naturally? And why do you feel the need to 'stomp it' in the first place if there's a natural time to do a 1 hour short rest?

And I think we've gotten way too far off the main topic here... I'm not sure I remember how we got on ragging about short rests when talking about at-will spells.