D&D (2024) Should Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade be in the new PHB?

[tetrasodium]

I feel the solution is to add at will weapon maneuvers for non-casters.

That too exposes a problem if it's in relation to booming blade/GFB. You might as well be talking about how rapiers greatswords & longbows need to serve the needs of wizard/sorcerer/druid/cleric better. We've not seen a single effort from wotc to nail down focus items to fit the needs of different caster roles & such yet now because there are a couple poorly designed cantrips occupying the wrong design space we are skipping straight to focus item weapons for non-casters before even starting on them for casters.

Well usually it's the non-casters who struggle so...

Well nothing. If that statement is true, the solution for "non-casters" needs to be some design space "non-casters" needs to be some design space they have access to not warping "actual-caster" stuff to suit "non-casters"

And the ACTUAL mix of martial and magic is precisely what makes those cantrips fun thematically. You're not a real gish if all you do is swing a sword with one hand and sling spell with the other, they're just two different things you can do. Those cantrips merge them into a single action. I dunno what the mechanical solution is, exactly, but they are thematically valid IMO.

You never answered the questions from 104 so it strikes me as odd to once again pivot & throw a dart at "gish". Gish is something achieved through levels not "I took elf and started with GFB". (Sub)class is the proper designspace for gish.

 

[Undrave]

Since you asked, should I take it as a given that you can name a fighting style s wizard 20 could pickup through a feat and obviously be able to use with firebolt poison spray or toll the dead with rock solid RAI supporting it?

This question?

That's a rather odd shift in direction... Potent spellcasting the class feature that explicitly modified cantrips? Elemental adept the feat that explicitly modified spells of a compatible damage type?

Well, they're not 'Fighting Style' in the sense that they're named as such but they're like the same thing and they offer flat bonus.

Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade and Lightning Lure are just at-will fusion of martial and magic to me, so I don't mind if they interact with both martial and magical buffs. The issue I have is when they become the obvious best option, like with a Rogue. I think it's cool they exist in the game.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

That too exposes a problem if it's in relation to booming blade/GFB. You might as well be talking about how rapiers greatswords & longbows need to serve the needs of wizard/sorcerer/druid/cleric better. We've not seen a single effort from wotc to nail down focus items to fit the needs of different caster roles & such yet now because there are a couple poorly designed cantrips occupying the wrong design space we are skipping straight to focus item weapons for non-casters before even starting on them for casters.

You seem to run a style of game that is somewhat contrary to many people's experiences, where the full casters are held down by the tyranny of fighters abusing their one hour short rests. Alternate rest rules might help on this, they certainly helped on mine with low encounter days utterly ruled by nova'ing casters (who also disproportionately held narrative control over downtime)

IMO, the damage should be Melee Weapon Maneuver > Melee Weapon Cantrip >Melee Spell Cantrip = Ranged Weapon Maneuver > Ranged Cantrip.

Melee weapon cantrips (typically) require investing in a second stat for something like a bladesinger and fulfill a fantasy of blending sword and sorcery.

 

[tetrasodium]

You seem to run a style of game that is somewhat contrary to many people's experiences, where the full casters are held down by the tyranny of fighters abusing their one hour short rests. Alternate rest rules might help on this, they certainly helped on mine with low encounter days utterly ruled by nova'ing casters (who also disproportionately held narrative control over downtime)

That is a completely different topic and wotc seems to be designing for that very cycle of short rest>nova>repeat given the immediate rollback on long rest warlock and lack of ever even showing a long rest monk. Fighter only really plays into that loop in the form of "[I used action surge] yea let's take one" jumping in line supporting the monk and warlock 5mwd.

IMO, the damage should be Melee Weapon Maneuver > Melee Weapon Cantrip >Melee Spell Cantrip = Ranged Weapon Maneuver > Ranged Cantrip.

Melee weapon cantrips (typically) require investing in a second stat for something like a bladesinger and fulfill a fantasy of blending sword and sorcery.

That bold bit is the problem. Gfb and booming blade do not require investing in a casting attribute, neither does a spell like shield or absorb elements. Those two enable the creation of a highly competent gish with zero. MAD style attribute investment in casting capabilities for a SAD strength or dex build.

 

[Undrave]

That is a completely different topic and wotc seems to be designing for that very cycle of short rest>nova>repeat given the immediate rollback on long rest warlock and lack of ever even showing a long rest monk. Fighter only really plays into that loop in the form of "[I used action surge] yea let's take one" jumping in line supporting the monk and warlock 5mwd.

...What? It's not a 5MWD if you take a short rest??

 

[tetrasodium]

...What? It's not a 5MWD if you take a short rest??

It is if you are playing a class that recovers all ki/discipline/spell slots on a short rest and operate at maximum resource burn then just refuse to push on without another short rest as soon as you are running low

 

[Undrave]

It is if you are playing a class that recovers all ki/discipline/spell slots on a short rest and operate at maximum resource burn then just refuse to push on without another short rest as soon as you are running low

That's still not a 5 Minute Work Day??

 

[tetrasodium]

That's still not a 5 Minute Work Day??

Singular/plural a 5mwd rarely ever finished the adventure by itself. Long or short rest fueled 5mewd the resulting impact on combat is identical. The only difference between the two is that it's even easier for players to avoid consequences other than those triggering an escalating spiral of adversarial fiat &player pushback when the players short rest beside the corpses before continuing with a new 5mwd than it it for them to go outside and long rest in the forest or whatever then come back. As long as 2-3 PCs in a 4-5 person party are warlock/monk+something like action surge early and often fighter the players are 100% highly incentivized to short rest after every fight to make their short rest abilities into st will ones.

 

[Dausuul]

I dunno... Fighting Styles? If your style gives you +1 dmg per attack, it's effectively a nerf to put it on the Cantrip since you don't get to apply it multiple time.

I guess Maneuvers? Again you only get one shot at it and it's a ressource.

I think you're saying the same thing I'm about to say...

Fighting styles, maneuvers, and smites don't work well with the weapon cantrips, because they're features of classes that rely on Extra Attack. Any time you use a weapon cantrip, you're sacrificing Extra Attack. Unless the bonus damage from the cantrip exceeds the damage of a whole other attack -- which it very seldom does -- you're coming out behind. A fighting style which boosts the damage of each attack is just putting you even further behind. Maneuvers and smite attacks also put you further behind, because you can only apply them on a hit, and you're more likely to miss one attack than two.

The weapon cantrips only combo effectively with Sneak Attack. And they do combo pretty well there, especially if you play an Arcane Trickster, which lets you pick them up without spending a feat. Even so, you're giving up the opportunity to dual wield, so there are tradeoffs to be made. The cantrip frees up your bonus action (which rogues can usually put to good use) and can sometimes trigger a powerful secondary effect. Dual wielding gives you two cracks at landing Sneak Attack instead of one, plus the off-hand weapon partly offsets the cantrip's bonus damage; if you don't get the secondary effect, dual wielding will inflict more damage on average. A smart rogue will switch off depending on circumstances, rather than spamming the cantrip every round.

Since rogue damage is generally sub-par unless you can arrange to get an out-of-turn Sneak Attack, I don't see this as a dire concern.

 

[mellored]

Part of me wants to make them a Bladesinger subclass feature.

Though changing Booming Blade is to Thorn Strike and giving it to druids would also be cool.