D&D (2024) Should Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade be in the new PHB?

[Yaarel]

I found eldritch knight so unfun that I ended up working with my DM to completely rebuild my character at level 8.

It just completely fails to capture any of the aspects which made the 3.5e duskblade, pathfinder magus, and 4e swordmage fun. The 1dnd playtest buffed it loads, but it wasn't ever lacking in power next to the other fighter subclasses. It still completely misses the point of a spellsword.

What features would make the Eldritch Knight more appealing?

 

[Sir Brennen]

Pretty sure you can't normally use one of those cantrips and multi attack in the same action unless you go for the Eldritch Knight maybe?

As I read it, @tetrasodium's referring to your comment that Sneak Attack is basically equivalent to the Fighter's multi-attack, not that the cantrips can be combined with a multi-attack.

BTW, if you look through the compiled Sage Advice doc, the ruling there is that cantrips do stack with Sneak Attack. Nothing in the Sneak Attack ability says it requires the Attack Action, only a small "a" attack with a finesse or ranged weapon (plus Advantage or a ally within 5'.)

That's why a Rogue can Sneak Attack as a reaction as well (for an attack of opportunity, for example). You can't take the Attack action as a reaction, but you can make an attack as a reaction.

Not saying I 100% agree, but from a RAW standpoint, there's nothing preventing combining Sneak Attack and Booming Blade.

 

[tetrasodium]

Pretty sure you can't normally use one of those cantrips and multi attack in the same action unless you go for the Eldritch Knight maybe?

@Sir Brennen already covered it. Those two cantrips don't work like cantrips despite being cantrips. That leads to a lot of perceived combos from "make a melee attack attack with it" which should never happen. Those perceived combos would never have been in question had booming blade/gfb been built to work like cantrips or been built to occupy a more suitable design space like feats & (sub)class abilities with specific uses or conditions that would obviously not get to latch onto something like every way cantrips can be combined with other stuff.

 

[Sir Brennen]

They should make the cantrips take a bonus action, and have them apply to the caster’s next melee attack before the end of their next turn. Not having the attack as part of the casting would go a long way toward making them more balanced. GFB could even warrant a little damage boost with this change.

A rogue would have to choose between casting a cantrip for more damage on their sneak attack, or doing something like Disengage or Hide to get away from danger.

But an eldritch knight would have fewer options competing for their bonus action, making it a better fit for them.

A hexblade might find it a little tough, as they’re often using their bonus action for casting/moving their hex, or using their Curse, but still a decent option.

 

[Kurotowa]

They should make the cantrips take a bonus action, and have them apply to the caster’s next melee attack before the end of their next turn. Not having the attack as part of the casting would go a long way toward making them more balanced. GFB could even warrant a little damage boost with this change.

I don't think it would work at all. If it makes them stack with Extra Attack, they're suddenly pure extra damage. Every Bladelock uses them, every Fighter takes Magic Initiate, High Elves are the best gish race for every class. If they're still mutually exclusive with Extra Attack, it's a pointless action tax that just serves to complicate things and penalize any other Bonus Action spell or feature.

 

[Undrave]

Those two cantrips don't work like cantrips despite being cantrips. That leads to a lot of perceived combos from "make a melee attack attack with it" which should never happen.

Besides Sneak Attack what else can they combine with you don't think they should?

They should make the cantrips take a bonus action, and have them apply to the caster’s next melee attack before the end of their next turn. Not having the attack as part of the casting would go a long way toward making them more balanced. GFB could even warrant a little damage boost with this change.

Nah that would be awful.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I don't think it would work at all. If it makes them stack with Extra Attack, they're suddenly pure extra damage. Every Bladelock uses them, every Fighter takes Magic Initiate, High Elves are the best gish race for every class. I

That’s why I said “next melee attack”, not “next Attack action”. So you‘d get additional damage on the first attack of the Extra Attack feature. It would also apply to attacks taken as a reaction, which is a positive IMO.

Note that the cantrips are already “pure extra damage” to a melee weapon attack currently.

I suppose it does move the maximum benefit from Sneak Attack to Extra Attack, but that does line up with the gish concept better at least.

f they're still mutually exclusive with Extra Attack, it's a pointless action tax that just serves to complicate things and penalize any other Bonus Action spell or feature.

if it were mutually exclusive with Extra Attack (which I don’t know how you’d word it so it applied to a weapon attack but not extra attack) then they‘d simply be something that a character with Extra Attack wouldn’t bother to take. No “pointless action tax”, and my current suggestion of making it a bonus action means yes, it would compete (not “penalize“) with other bonus actions is meant to be a feature, not a bug.

 

[tetrasodium]

.

Besides Sneak Attack what else can they combine with you don't think they should?

I mentioned at least one other by name in three or four different posts earlier. Instead of asking for a bulletproof first time perfect blackist one could club their gm with the second they a eplatbook creates a new combo that seems to fit, how qabout offering a list with one or more things you think should stack with cantrips like booming blade and gfb?

 

[Undrave]

.

I mentioned at least one other by name in three or four different posts earlier. Instead of asking for a bulletproof first time perfect blackist one could club their gm with the second they a eplatbook creates a new combo that seems to fit, how qabout offering a list with one or more things you think should stack with cantrips like booming blade and gfb?

I dunno... Fighting Styles? If your style gives you +1 dmg per attack, it's effectively a nerf to put it on the Cantrip since you don't get to apply it multiple time.

I guess Maneuvers? Again you only get one shot at it and it's a ressource.

Enchantement bonus? Any flat bonus really.

The big thing with the melee Cantrip that interest me more is the damage type and effect instead of the extra damage you get at later level. Maybe if the extra damage was d6 instead of d8?

I dunno, if someone is spending a bunch of ressources like a feat instead of ASI to get Green Flame Blade on their Rogue because they like to do BIIIIG DAMAAAAAGE then maybe I'd let them enjoy their BIIIIG DAMAAAAAGE for a while.

 

[Kurotowa]

Note that the cantrips are already “pure extra damage” to a melee weapon attack currently.

Only for Rogues*. Any other weapon focused class or subclass is going to get some flavor of Extra Attack, and outside of very niche builds Extra Attack is better than a weapon attack cantrip.

So right now the situation is that these cantrips can raise the max damage of Rogues, who most people seem to agree are lagging a bit in damage potential, and no one else. But if you flip it around, it makes the weapon cantrips raise the max damage of literally every martial character who takes them. Which makes it mandatory for everyone to be a gish, and crowds out all the existing class feature that use a Bonus Action.

It is, to be quite blunt, a terrible idea.

*Well, Clerics and Druids too, but no one's making weapon focused builds for those classes. Even the gimmick builds like Wildfire Druid with Shilelligh and Green-Flame Blade is doing more damage when they use their spell slots.