D&D (2024) Should healing word require hit dice?

[Jefe Bergenstein]

We're playing around with damage/healing rules in our current game. Cure Wounds, Lay on Hands, and Healing Word are all bonus actions as the baseline. Spending a regular action doubles the healing provided. Raising from 0 to 1 HP leaves a wound, which fills in a death save until it is removed. Characters have additional death save "bubbles" equal to their con bonus. Wounds are removed when you are healed to full, or receive treatment from the Medicine skill (DC 5+5x number of wounds) during a short rest.

In combat healing is worthwhile to use an action on, and you don't want whack a mole healing because that will fill up your death saves pretty fast.

 

[Bacon Bits]

I still don't understand why this problem keeps coming up.

If whack-a-mole is the problem -- and, to be clear, I've only seen it a few times in 5e -- why do you allow in-combat healing at all? If it's just Healing Word, why aren't you banning or modifying that spell? What hill are you dying on? If you think the game is broken, why are you working around the problem instead of fixing it directly?

What I really don't understand, though, is if you're the DM and this situation keeps coming up that often, why haven't you considered that your encounter balance is wrong? Why are your encounters so consistently bottoming out PC hit points that this is a strategy your players employ so much that it's aggravating? That really shouldn't be happening. And even if it does, why isn't "the cleric burns a spell slot and is limited to cantrips and weapon attacks" not attrition enough?

And if your encounters are bottoming out PC hit points so much, why don't your encounters have enough attacks to kill the PC outright? The built-in punishment for PCs pushing too far or not resting is that the NPCs say, "Oh, that's how it is? Well fine. We knock you down and attack you twice more to finish you off." Or how about, "We knock you down, then take your weapon." What's going on with your NPCs where that doesn't happen? Why don't your NPCs want to win? Why do the NPCs have to "play fair" but the rules should punish the situation?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I still don't understand why this problem keeps coming up.

If whack-a-mole is the problem -- and, to be clear, I've only seen it a few times in 5e -- why do you allow in-combat healing at all? If it's just Healing Word, why aren't you banning or modifying that spell? What hill are you dying on? If you think the game is broken, why are you working around the problem instead of fixing it directly?

What I really don't understand, though, is if you're the DM and this situation keeps coming up that often, why haven't you considered that your encounter balance is wrong? Why are your encounters so consistently bottoming out PC hit points that this is a strategy your players employ so much that it's aggravating? That really shouldn't be happening. And even if it does, why isn't "the cleric burns a spell slot and is limited to cantrips and weapon attacks" not attrition enough?

Healing Word crowds out design space by being both ranged and action efficient. In combat healing is also so mediocre for the action investment. So right now it's better to let someone drop to 0, then popup heal them with healing word. It creates a narrative that doesn't fit people's fantasy and makes a healer role unsatisfying because there's not much they can do to avoid having someone drop to 0. If your DM does have enemies attack at 0 HP (see below), you either need to start running earlier because you just get auto killed at 0, but running at 2/3 or half health isnt super satisfying for someone wanting to play a tough defender type. It balances healing/death on a razor's edge in a way that isn't interesting/fun.

And if your encounters are bottoming out PC hit points so much, why don't your encounters have enough attacks to kill the PC outright? The built-in punishment for PCs pushing too far or not resting is that the NPCs say, "Oh, that's how it is? Well fine. We knock you down and attack you twice more to finish you off." Or how about, "We knock you down, then take your weapon." What's going on with your NPCs where that doesn't happen? Why don't your NPCs want to win? Why do the NPCs have to "play fair" but the rules should punish the situation?

Because in-combat healing is so anemic that there's not much you can do to avoid being dropped to 0HP. And once you're there, there's not much you can do to not get instantly killed. Just having a couple goblins walk over and auto kill someone isn't satisfying for the player or DM. It feels punitive/adversarial and not too different than "rocks fall, you die". So while the DM can basically auto kill someone every time they drop to 0, it isn't done for social contract reasons, which reinforces popup healing. Players don't have the tools for anything else and the alternative creates ill will.

 

[mellored]

I still don't understand why this problem keeps coming up.

If whack-a-mole is the problem -- and, to be clear, I've only seen it a few times in 5e -- why do you allow in-combat healing at all?

Because some people want to play healers, and do so in combat.
Or because sometimes you roll bad, and don't want to be out of the rest of the fight.
Or because you want those tense story moments where your need to rush to a dying ally before they succumb to their wounds.

If it's just Healing Word, why aren't you banning or modifying that spell?

A modification such as by spending hit dice?

What hill are you dying on?

Doesn't matter what hill. We can just stand up again. Dying isn't very threatening.

If you think the game is broken, why are you working around the problem instead of fixing it directly?

Not sure why you don't see this as an attempt to fix it.
Spending hit dice could prevent this from being spammed, but still leave room for it to work on occasion.

What I really don't understand, though, is if you're the DM and this situation keeps coming up that often, why haven't you considered that your encounter balance is wrong?

No. Because the best way for players to heal is to wait for someone to be unconscious.

Why are your encounters so consistently bottoming out PC hit points that this is a strategy your players employ so much that it's aggravating?

Because they don't waste resources healing before they drop to 0.

For instance. If your ally is at 10 hp, and will be hit for 20 damage, 1st level healing word for 7hp, or a 3rd level healing spell for 17hp. What do you do?

You wait till you drop, and then heal.

That really shouldn't be happening. And even if it does, why isn't "the cleric burns a spell slot and is limited to cantrips and weapon attacks" not attrition enough?

At very low levels, yes. Spending one of your 2 slots to save someone from death is a good deal.

But at mid levels, you can do it 10 times, and still cast your high level spells.

A level 1 healing word will negate a level 20 hit. You just need to drop to 0 first.

Why do the NPCs have to "play fair" but the rules should punish the situation?

Why not give it a try yourself? Have 2 NPC, each with 10 healing words, and a few other high damage creatures.

Don't think it would be as fun as you think.

 

[Remathilis]

Healing Word crowds out design space by being both ranged and action efficient. In combat healing is also so mediocre for the action investment. So right now it's better to let someone drop to 0, then popup heal them with healing word. It creates a narrative that doesn't fit people's fantasy and makes a healer role unsatisfying because there's not much they can do to avoid having someone drop to 0. If your DM does have enemies attack at 0 HP (see below), you either need to start running earlier because you just get auto killed at 0, but running at 2/3 or half health isnt super satisfying for someone wanting to play a tough defender type. It balances healing/death on a razor's edge in a way that isn't interesting/fun.



Because in-combat healing is so anemic that there's not much you can do to avoid being dropped to 0HP. And once you're there, there's not much you can do to not get instantly killed. Just having a couple goblins walk over and auto kill someone isn't satisfying for the player or DM. It feels punitive/adversarial and not too different than "rocks fall, you die". So while the DM can basically auto kill someone every time they drop to 0, it isn't done for social contract reasons, which reinforces popup healing. Players don't have the tools for anything else and the alternative creates ill will.

I find a problem with this because it butts heads with the OTHER 5e truism: PCs are impossible to kill. If in combat healing is so ineffective that only healing the last hit point is worth it, then PCs should be dropping like flies. But DMs constantly whine about how they can't kill PCs after like 5th level. I'd say the answer to how bad in combat healing is would be to boost other healing spells to make healing word at 0 HP less attractive. But I'm pretty sure I just caused a bunch of killer DMs to bust a blood vessel.

 

[mellored]

I find a problem with this because it butts heads with the OTHER 5e truism: PCs are impossible to kill. If in combat healing is so ineffective that only healing the last hit point is worth it, then PCs should be dropping like flies. But DMs constantly whine about how they can't kill PCs after like 5th level. I'd say the answer to how bad in combat healing is would be to boost other healing spells to make healing word at 0 HP less attractive. But I'm pretty sure I just caused a bunch of killer DMs to bust a blood vessel.

Making in-combat healing better, and you still want to heal at 0.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I find a problem with this because it butts heads with the OTHER 5e truism: PCs are impossible to kill. If in combat healing is so ineffective that only healing the last hit point is worth it, then PCs should be dropping like flies. But DMs constantly whine about how they can't kill PCs after like 5th level. I'd say the answer to how bad in combat healing is would be to boost other healing spells to make healing word at 0 HP less attractive. But I'm pretty sure I just caused a bunch of killer DMs to bust a blood vessel.

DM's can kill characters at any time. Rocks fall, everyone dies. Have minions ready an action to attack when the boss attacks. Or simply waddle over and hit the downed character at 2 failed death saves per hit. Do it twice, the character is dead.

DM's don't do this because it's considered bad form. There's not much a party can do about it either, outside of readying a healing word. 5E D&D is a joke or impossibly deadly, depending on the willingness of the DM to simply kill characters. What doesn't really happen anymore is death by dice, where an (un)lucky crit or failed save kills a standing character. For the most part, the DM has to intentionally decide to kill the character, which breeds resentment and feels adversarial.

Right now there's no real punishment for dropping to 0, and not much a healer can do to prevent it from happening. The best thing they can do is focus on damage over all else, with healing word to popup heal, because the tradeoff between cure wounds and healing word is terrible. If you give healers tools to recover more meaningful chunks with an action, you validate the role and the DM is freer to play in a more "gloves off" way, because there was more of a chance for the party to avoid the 0HP state.

 

[Remathilis]

Right now there's no real punishment for dropping to 0, and not much a healer can do to prevent it from happening. The best thing they can do is focus on damage over all else, with healing word to popup heal, because the tradeoff between cure wounds and healing word is terrible. If you give healers tools to recover more meaningful chunks with an action, you validate the role and the DM is freer to play in a more "gloves off" way, because there was more of a chance for the party to avoid the 0HP state.

Which is my point; healing word isn't too good, cure wounds is poor. Its scaling is terrible and too swingy. It would be better at 2d6 or 2d8 per level rather than 1d8. Alternatively, it needs an additional rider beyond spellcasting stat (such as spell level or caster level) so that casting a 2nd level cure wounds doesn't run the risk of healing 5 hp out a possible 20. If Cure Wounds was healing 2d8+4 per level vs healing words 1d4+4, there would be a reason to use it more often.

Likewise, mass cure wounds is very anemic for its level, prayer of healing isn't a combat spell, and you don't start getting meaningful heals again until heal is an option. Healing all across 5e is too conservative and should be tuned upwards, including self heals like second wind or wholeness of body. Maybe if dropping to zero means you've exhausted all your good healing options, then I could see some penalty added for dropping to 0.

 

[Clint_L]

DM's can kill characters at any time. Rocks fall, everyone dies. Have minions ready an action to attack when the boss attacks. Or simply waddle over and hit the downed character at 2 failed death saves per hit. Do it twice, the character is dead.

DM's don't do this because it's considered bad form.

I don’t do it because combat is happening fast so as far as the mob knows, the downed character is dead already and at least unconscious, so they turn their focus to the next threat.

And just randomly killing the party because rocks fall would indeed be bad form.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

DM's can kill characters at any time. Rocks fall, everyone dies. Have minions ready an action to attack when the boss attacks. Or simply waddle over and hit the downed character at 2 failed death saves per hit. Do it twice, the character is dead.

DM's don't do this because it's considered bad form. There's not much a party can do about it either, outside of readying a healing word. 5E D&D is a joke or impossibly deadly, depending on the willingness of the DM to simply kill characters. What doesn't really happen anymore is death by dice, where an (un)lucky crit or failed save kills a standing character. For the most part, the DM has to intentionally decide to kill the character, which breeds resentment and feels adversarial.

Right now there's no real punishment for dropping to 0, and not much a healer can do to prevent it from happening. The best thing they can do is focus on damage over all else, with healing word to popup heal, because the tradeoff between cure wounds and healing word is terrible. If you give healers tools to recover more meaningful chunks with an action, you validate the role and the DM is freer to play in a more "gloves off" way, because there was more of a chance for the party to avoid the 0HP state.

As a GM of 5e I have killed a total of 7 characters. I go pretty far out of my way to avoid gratuitous combats. I certainly don't try to kill any character.

But I do play my enemies as I feel they logically would act. If the party is attacked by wolves then either the wolves are defending their territory, are controlled by someone else, or are trying to eat you.

If a wolves are trying to eat you, then a pack of them is going to swarm a single character. They are going to take that character down to the ground and eat them. They will continue to bite until they get a big hunk of meat they can run off with.

Playing enemies logically isn't Mean-GM-mode. It's just honest storytelling.