D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Minigiant]

Have you tried using a bow?

With a sword. That was the original comment.

 

[mamba]

But, I'm probably being pedantic (not @Pedantic) just regular pedantic

that feels like more than regular pedantic

 

[Minigiant]

Okay, you're confusing me with this position. I'm going to need a detailed explanation for how one argument is the same as the other for me to be able to get it.

The OP asked the original question.

The answers given are (once they elaborate)

"Martials should be mundane and use magic items to perform supernatural acts"

"Martials should be supernatural and not need magic items to perform supernatural acts"

"Both of the above"

 

[Corinnguard]

The OP's question should have been polled.

 

[Oofta]

It is the same argument as the people who say that martials should be mundane should have magic items.

How? Because no one is saying they're required to have magic weapons. If other people in the group have magic weapons, of course the fighter should have them as well.

 

[mamba]

That's what the question really is though.

The answer to the OP's question hinges on the answer to My question.

not really, your question is not a prerequisite that gets us closer, it either is an implied answer in itself, or a conclusion from the answer to the original question.

Answer in itself: martials are mundane and the only way to overcome that is through magic items
Conclusion: martials are either, but if they are mundane, you better make sure to give them magic items to compensate for that

So at best it is a rephrasing without getting us any closer

 

[Corinnguard]

Magic items are one way to overcome mundane-ness. Class abilities are another way.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Two thoughts.

You can give martials more general abilties. Instead of taunt, it's "Make something attack me" -- you are crafty person and good at at all kinds of ways to taunt, trick, goad, intice, etc. enemies into attacking you. Effect is a given unless there really is no way at all to justify it.

Or.

Hand out these lesser abilties like candy. Don't overvalue Taunt with all its DM adjucation. Make it a low level ability and a bonus action. So you are a super annoying character that can get under people's skin. Give some examples at different levels of what this could look like. The DM can decide exactly what works and the limitations but at least you have something part of the character that says -- this guy should able to get under people's skin and do level appropriate stuff that. Just don't value this like an always works spell, even if you can theoretically try it at will.

Your second option just sounds like skill checks. Make a Persuasion roll to annoy.

Your first option makes it more defined in what it does (it's not a taunt, it's just an ability that makes enemies target you), but doesn't really fix the "backwards order" problem that is at the core of this. A lot of people are going to have legitimate issues with a telling an improvised story from the outcome to the cause.

But no one really has much of an issue with the compelled duel spell, because it's a spell. Why not just let your fighter cast that spell (perhaps through a shield that utters a magical dictum)?

Or we handwave or ignore the edge cases and those that bring them up forever.

No one's stoppin' ya.

But in terms of designing D&D as a whole, I don't think WotC can. Too many theater kids in the core audience who understand that the core of an improvised performance is reaction. Too many players for whom the fun of D&D is more in finding out where the story goes and less in explaining a predetermined outcome. To these players, these aren't edge cases, they're intrinsic questions of game design and intent. If you want D&D as a whole to figure out it's fighters, then we can't just ignore them.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But in terms of designing D&D as a whole, I don't think WotC can. Too many theater kids in the core audience who understand that the core of an improvised performance is reaction. Too many players for whom the fun of D&D is more in finding out where the story goes and less in explaining a predetermined outcome. To these players, these aren't edge cases, they're intrinsic questions of game design and intent. If you want D&D as a whole to figure out it's fighters, then we can't just ignore them.

And none of them are the ones demanding an explanation for every little thing. Because they know how to roll with things and improvise.

 

[Retros_x]

I'm not interested in "heroic fantasy". I'm interested in an imaginary world that, outside of explicit supernatural factors, operates more or less with Earth physics (with some wiggle room for action movie stuff). The early game basically allowed for this if you wanted it too, and so do many OSR variants. The closest thing in 5e that does what I want is Level Up, which is why I strongly support it.

I was not talking how I want DnD to be, but how I think it actually already is. And it operates on Earth physics, that is what makes the heroes mystic/fantastical/supernatural. If it wouldn't be earth physics, everybody would be able to do these deeds and it would not be supernatural anymore, but in DnD clearly a normal soldier is not even close to the abilites of player martials even on tier 1.