D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Tony Vargas]

I didn't say a fighter is ineffective or unable to kill monsters without magic.

You don't need to say that...

For adventurers, though, magic is key to their survival. Without the healing magic of clerics and paladins, adventurers would quickly succumb to their wounds. Without the uplifting magical support of bards and clerics, warriors might be overwhelmed by powerful foes. Without the sheer magical power and versatility of wizards and druids, every threat would be magnified tenfold.
—D&D Basic Rules, “The Wonders of Magic”

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think the implication is that if the fighter gets items as part of the class feature, there needs to be an in-game reason for it to happen and those are as good as any to use.

But what does it say in the class feature description?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Except the spell repetition across classes, which TSR also engaged in, of course.

But, ultimately, I'm not sure. Putting every class on the same xp progression, for instance, is a clear simplification that doesn't hurt the game, at all (it makes balance more theoretically achievable, possibly helping the game, if anything), and doesn't hurt the implied fiction, either.

Except it requires all classes to advance in power at the same rate, to maintain your vaunted balance. If you based it on total XP per PC rather than on level, classes as a concept get a lot more variability.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Honestly, for me it doesn't matter. A runesmith would be fun, but so would narratively getting the stuff. It's not hard for the DM to come up with a valid reason why the fighter gets the magic item right then. At worst the fighter has to wait a short time in game to receive the item, but that's a fantastic roleplaying opportunity.

It absolutely does matter to me. And anyway, why should the fighter have to wait to use their class feature when nobody else has to?

 

[Oofta]

Magic items aren't assumed.

But practically no one is running level 16+ martials without either magic items OR supernatural class features.

Are they anyone not using either magic items or supernatural class features up to level 20?
Anyone?

I'll ask again. Most games are going to have at least some magic items. So? What does that have to do with anything?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I was not talking how I want DnD to be, but how I think it actually already is. And it operates on Earth physics, that is what makes the heroes mystic/fantastical/supernatural. If it wouldn't be earth physics, everybody would be able to do these deeds and it would not be supernatural anymore, but in DnD clearly a normal soldier is not even close to the abilites of player martials even on tier 1.

You can make D&D what you want. WotC doesn't decide for you unless you let them. Otherwise, what's the point of this thread? No one here's going to convince WotC of anything.

 

[Tony Vargas]

But what does it say in the class feature description?

Fighter SUX, lol?

If it wouldn't be earth physics, everybody would be able to do these deeds and it would not be supernatural anymore

Everybody could. There are no stat or race requirements for entering a class, anymore.

Except it requires all classes to advance in power at the same rate

The same rate of level relative to exp, which are both invisible details from the perspective of fiction. So the rate being "the same" makes no difference.

If you based it on total XP per PC rather than on level, classes as a concept get a lot more variability.

Variability visible only to the player, representing nothing in the fiction. It was a neat idea, but it only contributed needless complexity.

 

[Maxperson]

It absolutely does matter to me. And anyway, why should the fighter have to wait to use their class feature when nobody else has to?

For years I waited on scrolls, books, trading, etc. to use my class feature of, "You can cast spells." 1 spell gained per level put a big crimp in that ability.

 

[Voadam]

But no one is saying a mundane warrior and mundane thief should be able to defeat the monsters of the MM without magic items.

Sure they should.

Some monsters in 5e are immune to non magical attacks which means they cannot, which is the way it is for those monsters but I think that is a mistake for a game that does not assume magic items and generally assumes fighting monsters.

Specters are 5e ghosts that anybody can punch to death from first level on.

5e is a bit inconsistent on its monster design here.

It can easily be done.

In 5e turn immune to resist and non-supernatural martial classes can kill monsters with just a steel weapon. It will take twice as many hp damage to do so, but it can be done the same way they can defeat monsters with resistance to weapons.

To make it even more leveling across classes take away even resistance to weapons so Conan can kill the Spider God.

4e handled no-magic martial classes fighting monsters just fine, inherent bonuses put them on a fairly even playing field with stock magic item 4e treadmill ones.

 

[Minigiant]

I'll ask again. Most games are going to have at least some magic items. So? What does that have to do with anything?

Because the whole mundane or supernatural debate is really one of whether the DM is forced to give magic items to be supernatural or not.

AKA
Bob is experienced High STR average Dex martial with Melee Specializations
Monster is 100 feet in air.
Axe cannot be thrown 100 feet normally.

Should Bob have a class feature or feat to let him melee or thrown his axe at the Monster OR should the DM give Bob a magic bow or an axe of throwing beforehand?

This is why the conversation is always around throwing and jumping.