D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Maxperson]

Let's look at an all martial party. A 20th level battle master fighter, samurai fighter, berserker barbarian, and assassin rogue. No magic items.

How do they take down a Demilich (CR18, which should be an easy encounter)? It's immune to non-magical weapons.

CR4 Coatls could give them trouble. Again, immune to non-magical weapons,

A few corner case monsters do not an issue make. I mean, a Rakshasa is immune to spells under 7th level and has advantage on saves over that. It's CR 13 and can be encountered below 13th level where a full party of casters would have no way to hurt it at all. Even if they are 13th level, they have exactly 1 spell each that they can use and it has advantage on any saves.

The mummy rot from a CR15 mummy lord would be a death sentence if they can't find an NPC to cast remove curse on them (or simply can't reach them in time - no access to teleport).

It's okay to make an incredibly easy game a bit more challenging.

If most of them are strength based, even CR 3 manticores could give them a hard time (because strength based ranged weapons have a pitiful range). Since javelins only have a maximum 120' range, the manticores can move away after they attack and perpetually remain out of range, allowing only a readied action at disadvantage to counterattack. Admittedly, this is not nearly the same issue for dexterity oriented martials.*

*Which brings me to a tangent that really grinds my gears. Why is a 1st level wizard with 8 strength able to lob a javelin the same distance as a 20th level fighter with 20+ strength!?

I also dislike how the game treats strength differences.

Not to mention running up against something like a wall of force blocking their path or getting imprisoned in a forcecage.

Now consider a 20th level party of all casters. A life cleric, abjuration wizard, moon druid, and lore bard. Again, no magic items. Do you honestly think that any of those encounters I listed would give them much trouble? I seriously doubt it.

There are plenty of encounters that an all martial party will struggle with (or find downright impossible) at both low and high levels, without the right magic items (or support from a spellcaster). Whereas caster will have little to no trouble with most encounters. Even against a beholder with it's anti-magic eye, all they need to do is spread out so it can only target one of them at a time.

So there are monsters that give casters a lot of hassle, and monsters that do the same to martials. Once in a while it's okay to use one against a group that can't win against it. Not all encounters need to be winnable or should be fought. The martials can use persuasion to negotiate with the manticores and even the lich.

 

[Oofta]

I realize that's not your intent, but you're pretty much proving my point. You might not think it means much. I seriously disagree.

I think making any monster immune to all but magical attacks is a mistake. It also doesn't really mean anything to 99% of the games played.

 

[Minigiant]

How do you figure? Are there combats where spellcasters are at a disadvantage compared to martials? Yep. Are there combats where martials are at a disadvantage compared to casters? Yep. Seems to me that the game design shows 5e to roll that way. Whether you have an issue with it or not is personal.

The casters are Disadvantaged in one way but they still have advantage elsewhere.

Every monster has AC and every caster has access to spells and Cantrips that work on the stone golem via attack rolls.

 

[Corinnguard]

Because the whole mundane or supernatural debate is really one of whether the DM is forced to give magic items to be supernatural or not.

AKA
Bob is experienced High STR average Dex martial with Melee Specializations
Monster is 100 feet in air.
Axe cannot be thrown 100 feet normally.

Should Bob have a class feature or feat to let him melee or thrown his axe at the Monster OR should the DM give Bob a magic bow or an axe of throwing beforehand?

This is why the conversation is always around throwing and jumping.

Your example here leaves out a number of stuff.

1. What race does Bob belong to? Some races have abilities that could probably help him out here.
2. Which martial class/subclass does Bob belong to?
3. What level is he at?
4. What feats, if any, does he have that could aid him here?
5. Is he by himself or is he a part of a group? I am betting the latter. Teamwork counts!
6. What kind of monster is he and/or the group dealing with?

These are all variables that need to be taken into account and problem-solved by the party.

As for the DM giving Bob a magic bow or an Axe of Throwing, what if they can't?

 

[Maxperson]

Your example here leaves out a number of stuff.

1. What race does Bob belong to? Some races have abilities that could probably help him out here.
2. Which martial class/subclass does Bob belong to?
3. What level is he at?
4. What feats, if any, does he have that could aid him here?
5. Is he by himself or is he a part of a group? I am betting the latter. Teamwork counts!
6. What kind of monster is he and/or the group dealing with?

These are all variables that need to be taken into account and problem-solved by the party.

As for the DM giving Bob a magic bow or an Axe of Throwing, what if they can't?

And as I mentioned before, it's okay for a fight to be too hard or unwinnable. There are other avenues to be had.

 

[Oofta]

This idea that fighters couldn't take out a monster that is immune to magic doesn't really mean much to me. Might as well posit that a group of wizards would have a hard time defeating a dozen goblins if they were in an anti-magic zone. While true, it also doesn't really matter much.

 

[Voadam]

There are a handful of core 5e MM things martials with no magic flat out can't hurt.

Couatl, Demilich, Kraken, Lycanthropes*, Mummy Lord, Rakshasa, Androsphinx. Lycanthropes can be hurt with silver or magic weapons.

Any monsters from the 5e MM with nonmagical weapon immunity that I missed?

Martials with no magic can kill every incorporeal monster, every demon and devil, every undead but the demilich (vampire is especially tough though with both resistance and 20 hp regeneration if no radiant) out of the MM.

Resistance is common and makes non magical martials half as effective, which is a decently big deal, but that is qualitatively different from can't do anything against.

 

[Fanaelialae]

A few corner case monsters do not an issue make. I mean, a Rakshasa is immune to spells under 7th level and has advantage on saves over that. It's CR 13 and can be encountered below 13th level where a full party of casters would have no way to hurt it at all. Even if they are 13th level, they have exactly 1 spell each that they can use and it has advantage on any saves.

It's okay to make an incredibly easy game a bit more challenging.

I also dislike how the game treats strength differences.

So there are monsters that give casters a lot of hassle, and monsters that do the same to martials. Once in a while it's okay to use one against a group that can't win against it. Not all encounters need to be winnable or should be fought. The martials can use persuasion to negotiate with the manticores and even the lich.

A caster party can certainly defeat a Rakshasa. The Rakshasa can't be directly affected by spells below 7th level, it's true. That doesn't mean you can't summon monsters to beat it to death. You could trap it behind a Wall of Force or a Forcecage. You could teleport away from it.

Heck, given that it's a CR13, you can just blast it with your 7th+ level spells, since 13th level casters have those. IME, spell resistance doesn't mean much against high level casters unless they target a strong save.

An all martial party without magic weapons would find a Rakshasa basically impossible, unless at least one of them is good aligned and has a piercing weapon (and thinks to use it). If they manage to run away and it lands it's curse on them, they can't even rest until they get a remove curse cast on them.

Yes, a Rakshasa could give an all caster party some trouble (or at least could force them to use some of their more valuable resources). It's a challenging encounter, but far from unbeatable for casters. For martials though? Better hope you picked a good alignment and have a bow or spear, or you're hosed.

 

[Voadam]

If you cherry pick monsters, just grab the gargoyles. CR 2 and immune to non-magical weapons. It doesn't mean much.

I think my MM says resistance for gargoyles.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

An all martial party without magic weapons would find a Rakshasa basically impossible, unless at least one of them is good aligned and has a piercing weapon (and thinks to use it).

even that wouldn't work. the piercing weapon would have to be magic.