D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Warpiglet-7]

There is a lot to get is overlooked in the discussion about marital and the mundane and martials and casters.

“You don’t want martials to have nice things.”

D&D is a game of imagination. Many of us don’t like the visual imagery of fighters flying through the air announcing the their attacks while the eyes are glowing as the norm.

Or whatever. Some people want very skilled warriors hacking slashing and shoving in a gritty scene. Taking the hat away is taking away a staple trope of fantasy and fiction.

However, that does not preclude other choices. Monks do some nutty stuff and there could be other characters that do flashy stuff.

I say let there be both mundane and other fighters. More options means more people can play with the tropes and archetypes they like. DMs can world build. Win-win

 

[Corinnguard]

There ought to be a thread that talks about what kind of martial-type character a player personally likes playing as. Not everyone plays a martial in quite the same way. Some play as a STR-based martial while others like playing as a DEX-based martial. Some take up minor spellcasting or use ki for that extra edge while others take up feats. Brute force vs strategy and so on.

Martials aren't monolithic.

 

[Oofta]

There ought to be a thread that talks about what kind of martial-type character a player personally likes playing as. Not everyone plays a martial in quite the same way. Some play as a STR-based martial while others like playing as a DEX-based martial. Some take up minor spellcasting or use ki for that extra edge while others take up feats. Brute force vs strategy and so on.

Martials aren't monolithic.

My problem with "What kind of martial warrior do you want to play?" Is that my answer would be "All of them."

I'm playing my first wizard in years, but when I get to play I definitely gravitate to front line types, either tank fighters, clerics or paladins along with the occasional monk.

I'm okay with a bit of magic, my last fighter was a rune knight, but I'd be just as happy with a champion. Sometimes I like the simplicity since most of my time gaming is spent DMing.

But I definitely want the base fighter to just be really good at swinging thrir weapon of choice. To me having them doing obviously magical things just doesn't really fit the game. If I fly through the air I want it to be because I have magic boots. No, I don't consider using magic items the same as my PC being supernatural any more than I think I can run faster than any human because I drive my car down the freeway at 60 MPH.

 

[Minigiant]

It's more like 22%, about a third of those are dragons. But it's not like casters have the corner on ranged attacks. Resistant to magic is largely meaningless (also around 20%) and I don't see how teleportation is relevant one way or another

The issue is that D&D has struggled to have a martial that has a good magic melee attack and a good ranged attack for 50 years without either using magic items or supernatural class features. (Dex Melee struggles)

D&D always puts Melee Weapons and Ranged Weapons on different tracks and uses magic items to shore up the weakeness. It's worse in later editions like 3e, 4e, and 5e due to HP bloat. So every DM ends up handing out magic items if the campaign goes long enough.

But no one wants to mandate something that every DM pretty much has to do.

Thats how 4e got residum. And why playtest martial can change Weapon Mastery overnight.

Because these things got to be in the game but..

"We don't want to tell and force the DM to do something."

So the martials get more and more supernatural as the game hems and haws over giving DMs rules and just empowers PCs.

Mundane (the DMs had the mandate to fix the problem and maintain fairness and fun)
VS
Supernatural (the players are empowered to solve their own problems)

 

[Minigiant]

My problem with "What kind of martial warrior do you want to play?" Is that my answer would be "All of them."

I'm playing my first wizard in years, but when I get to play I definitely gravitate to front line types, either tank fighters, clerics or paladins along with the occasional monk.

I'm okay with a bit of magic, my last fighter was a rune knight, but I'd be just as happy with a champion. Sometimes I like the simplicity since most of my time gaming is spent DMing.

But I definitely want the base fighter to just be really good at swinging thrir weapon of choice. To me having them doing obviously magical things just doesn't really fit the game. If I fly through the air I want it to be because I have magic boots. No, I don't consider using magic items the same as my PC being supernatural any more than I think I can run faster than any human because I drive my car down the freeway at 60 MPH.

I agree with you almost 100%.

The whole conversation really seems like a proxy whether or not a DM is forced to give that warrior magic boots, magic winged armor, or a magic bow.

The supernatural side of the argument is heavily based on being DM independent.

 

[Corinnguard]

My problem with "What kind of martial warrior do you want to play?" Is that my answer would be "All of them."

The kind of martial warrior I would like to play as would be one who has the two-weapon fighting style, and can 'dance' across the battlefield dodging blows from my opponents while landing several of my own. I have never really been interested in playing a STR-based martial or being the tank.

I'm playing my first wizard in years, but when I get to play I definitely gravitate to front line types, either tank fighters, clerics or paladins along with the occasional monk.

When I first began playing 5e two years ago, I decided to play as a Dragonborn Fighter with a variant of the Scout subclass Scout, Variant (5e Subclass) - D&D Wiki I used my character's Action Surge for his breath weapon so that I wouldn't have to give up an Action while fighting with my character's twin Kopeshes, and I used the subclass' Skirmish ability a lot. This variant of the Scout btw was someone's attempt to make the 3e Scout class into a Fighter subclass.
I should also point out that this character was the only non-spellcaster in the party at the time. So yes, he was the mundane one.

I'm okay with a bit of magic, my last fighter was a rune knight, but I'd be just as happy with a champion.

My current character is a Bugbear Ranger (Gloom Stalker). He's my first attempt at having a martial who can do a little spellcasting and is more of a ranged martial than a melee martial type. As a Gloom Stalker, he's definitely supernatural.

 

[Fanaelialae]

My problem with "What kind of martial warrior do you want to play?" Is that my answer would be "All of them."

I'm playing my first wizard in years, but when I get to play I definitely gravitate to front line types, either tank fighters, clerics or paladins along with the occasional monk.

I'm okay with a bit of magic, my last fighter was a rune knight, but I'd be just as happy with a champion. Sometimes I like the simplicity since most of my time gaming is spent DMing.

But I definitely want the base fighter to just be really good at swinging thrir weapon of choice. To me having them doing obviously magical things just doesn't really fit the game. If I fly through the air I want it to be because I have magic boots. No, I don't consider using magic items the same as my PC being supernatural any more than I think I can run faster than any human because I drive my car down the freeway at 60 MPH.

Sure, you can't run faster than a human can run while in your car, but you can certainly move faster.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of the end result. If you don't want to think of a magic item using fighter as supernatural, that's fine. However, let's consider an explicitly supernatural fighter (they have a hypothetical subclass called Green Phoenix) that can inherently fly. A "mundane" fighter puts on magic boots that also give them identical flight capabilities. The end result is the same (supernatural), right? In both cases, you end up with a flying fighter. It doesn't matter to me whether you think of the first fighter as supernatural and the second as mundane, or both supernatural, or whatever. I honestly couldn't care, and it doesn't relate to anything I've been discussing. If having the latter fighter as an option makes you happier, then I'd be all for including it.

I, personally, prefer the former option, but that's just my preference. You can achieve the same end result either way.

However, I do believe that if the latter fighter is included, it ought to have some way to acquire those items, beyond DM fiat.

The current state of martials is akin to if wizards just got their 1st level spells, and then had to find all additional spells during play. In that scenario, a 5th level wizard who hasn't found any (offensive) spells can still up cast magic missile using a 3rd level spell slot. But I don't think anyone would argue that this wizard with only upcast magic missile is equivalent to a wizard who's learned fireball. As I see it, that's the current state of martials. They are dependent on magic items but have no player facing means to obtain them.

Well, one might retort, any halfway decent DM will give the questing wizard fireball, and the martial a magic weapon. Okay, and if they don't? Moreover, is there any benefit for the game to require that of the DM, instead of just automating it via the class design, as with the RAW wizard automatically getting 2 spells per spell level? I don't think it's a good game design choice. Classes should be complete, particularly at high levels. High level martials are incomplete, being significantly reliant on an external power source (magic items), and the distribution of those magic items currently relies on what effectively amounts to DM fiat.

I'm not saying that DMs shouldn't be able to distribute magic items. But I am saying that the distribution of magic items essential to a character's completeness should be player facing. There's lots of ways to implement that, from the player chooses an item at X level (insert explanation here), to the player having an ability once per X levels that amounts to my character is going on an adventure and at the end of the adventure he's going to find item Y, to the character being able to craft Y, and plenty more that I haven't touched on. I don't really care about the implementation details as long as it is viable. But I do think it ought to be implemented.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I think exceptional movement, jumping and feats of strength are the sort of things high level martials should definitely have without magic items. Unless you take it to extreme levels it won't seem blatantly supernatural, it is just extension of normal human capabilities. This is not to say that high level martials couldn't have blatantly supernatural capabilities too, but it is perhaps best to have those as optional features or as part of subclass, as it seems many people are allergic to that sort of stuff.

 

[Oofta]

Sure, you can't run faster than a human can run while in your car, but you can certainly move faster.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of the end result. If you don't want to think of a magic item using fighter as supernatural, that's fine. However, let's consider an explicitly supernatural fighter (they have a hypothetical subclass called Green Phoenix) that can inherently fly. A "mundane" fighter puts on magic boots that also give them identical flight capabilities. The end result is the same (supernatural), right? In both cases, you end up with a flying fighter. It doesn't matter to me whether you think of the first fighter as supernatural and the second as mundane, or both supernatural, or whatever. I honestly couldn't care, and it doesn't relate to anything I've been discussing. If having the latter fighter as an option makes you happier, then I'd be all for including it.

I, personally, prefer the former option, but that's just my preference. You can achieve the same end result either way.

However, I do believe that if the latter fighter is included, it ought to have some way to acquire those items, beyond DM fiat.

The current state of martials is akin to if wizards just got their 1st level spells, and then had to find all additional spells during play. In that scenario, a 5th level wizard who hasn't found any (offensive) spells can still up cast magic missile using a 3rd level spell slot. But I don't think anyone would argue that this wizard with only upcast magic missile is equivalent to a wizard who's learned fireball. As I see it, that's the current state of martials. They are dependent on magic items but have no player facing means to obtain them.

Well, one might retort, any halfway decent DM will give the questing wizard fireball, and the martial a magic weapon. Okay, and if they don't? Moreover, is there any benefit for the game to require that of the DM, instead of just automating it via the class design, as with the RAW wizard automatically getting 2 spells per spell level? I don't think it's a good game design choice. Classes should be complete, particularly at high levels. High level martials are incomplete, being significantly reliant on an external power source (magic items), and the distribution of those magic items currently relies on what effectively amounts to DM fiat.

I'm not saying that DMs shouldn't be able to distribute magic items. But I am saying that the distribution of magic items essential to a character's completeness should be player facing. There's lots of ways to implement that, from the player chooses an item at X level (insert explanation here), to the player having an ability once per X levels that amounts to my character is going on an adventure and at the end of the adventure he's going to find item Y, to the character being able to craft Y, and plenty more that I haven't touched on. I don't really care about the implementation details as long as it is viable. But I do think it ought to be implemented.

A fighter is perfectly complete without a single magic item as far as I'm concerned. If the DM is not providing magical weapons and still throwing monsters that are immune to magic that must be defeated? No different than a DM regularly throwing wizards into anti-magic zones.

 

[Fanaelialae]

A fighter is perfectly complete without a single magic item as far as I'm concerned. If the DM is not providing magical weapons and still throwing monsters that are immune to magic that must be defeated? No different than a DM regularly throwing wizards into anti-magic zones.

Those are 2 completely different things as far as I'm concerned.

I've rarely seen an anti-magic zone in my many years of playing. Most campaigns have exactly zero.

I've regularly seen plenty of flying, or resistant/immune creatures, as well as creatures with abilities that can only be dealt with using magic (mummy rot or a Rakshasa's curse). Sure, the DM could cover their entire world in an anti-magic zone, if they really wanted to. But that's not remotely the same as cracking open the MM, finding a cool monster, and then realizing the party doesn't have the resources to deal with it, despite the CR being appropriate for their level, just because you don't have casters in the party.

I've literally never found a monster and hesitated to use it because there are no martials in the party. If anything, a party like that usually makes me think "I'd better use at least 2 of these if this is going to be any kind of challenge".