Should moon druids have elemental form?

[mellored]

So I've seen several people suggest that the elemental wild shape should be it's own subclass (possibly with wild fire), as it doesn't really fit the beast form theme.

And it seems to me that that elemental forms where only added because they ran out of high level beasts.

So what's the consensus? Should moon druids just stick to pure beasts

turn into elementals

Or a mix like frost wolves and phoenix?

 

[Clint_L]

Beasts only. Come up with some new beast options for them at higher levels (giant bear or whatever). I find the elemental forms thematically incoherent for moon druids.

Give elemental forms their own sub-class.

 

[Tonguez]

I think that they do need to split Monstrosities so they can add some magical beasts like Owlbears, Griffons and Winterwolf to the Wildshape list but otherwise it ought to be all Beast (Mundane & Magical).

Elemental Druid should indeed be its own thing (maybe tied to a Natural Disaster theme)

 

[Vael]

I'd sooner give the Moon Druid something else, and make a "Elemental Wildshape" feat.

 

[Gorck]

I think that they do need to split Monstrosities so they can add some magical beasts like Owlbears, Griffons and Winterwolf to the Wildshape list but otherwise it ought to be all Beast (Mondane & Magical).

Elemental Druid should indeed be its own thing (maybe tied to a Natural Disaster theme)

This. I know it’s semantics, but Circle of the Moon invokes images of wolves howling at the moon, which implies beasts. I’m intrigued by the idea of allowing Moon Druids to Wild Shape into Monstrosities, but I haven’t looked over the full list of Monstrosities to see if there are any problematic options.

A separate subclass allowing Druids to Wild Shape into Elementals also seems like a good idea, but I’m not sure what other abilities to give such a subclass. I’ll need to ponder this further.

EDIT: Using koboldplus.club to look at the list of Monstrosities that are CR 6 or lower (based on the 2014 "Circle Forms" ability of level/3 rounded down), there are a few that don't seem to fit: Centaur, Harpy, Medusa, Mimic. So there would need to be more restrictions put in place.

 

[Amrûnril]

I voted for the beast only option, though I'll add the caveat that I'd like beast-like monstrosities to be included as well.

I suspect that elemental forms were originally part of the Moon Druid because the 2014 Druid only had two subclasses, a wild shape subclass and a spellcasting subclass. In a world where every class will have at least four subclasses, though, it's hard to see an argument beyond tradition for merging the Beast Shape Druid and Elemental Druid archetypes into a single subclass.

Thus far, though, it doesn't seem like the developers have considered the possibility of splitting these archetypes. Perhaps this is because the Moon Druid is currently the most popular subclass, but if so, I think this perspective is misguided. The Moon Druid is popular because it's the only subclass that fits the archetypes many Druid players are interested in. Many of those players would likely be more satisfied by a more focused subclass, even if none of those focused subclasses were individually as popular as the Moon Druid.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Honestly I'd rather they gave elemental themed druids their own subclass, rather than it getting tacked onto the beast transformation subclass.

 

[Clint_L]

I think if you replaced the current elemental options with some comparatively powerful beast or monstrosity options, most moon druid players would be onboard. In fact, maybe this is the place to allow a limited selection of beast-like monstrosities. Like a CR 5 owlbear (come on, after the movie you know folks are going to want it).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I really think that the moon Druid should get the ability to take on Fey forms, and select hybrid beast forms.

 

[mellored]

there are a few that don't seem to fit: Centaur, Harpy, Medusa, Mimic.

I expect some kind of template(s) + options. Not digging though the monster manual. So I wouldn't worry about corner cases like Medusa.

Though now I want to turn into a Mimic... not as a "moon" druid. But still would be fun.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Druid Circles:

Land (Alternate uses of channel nature)
Moon (Beast Forms)
Elements (Elemental Forms - eats the Wildfire subclass)
Forest (Plant Forms)

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

I expect some kind of template(s) + options. Not digging though the monster manual. So I wouldn't worry about corner cases like Medusa.

Yeah, the move away from Monster Manual scraping is one of the few truly positive changes I've seen in this playtest.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I think as soon as you have two "wildshape into combat forms" subclasses, then that will be the end of new subclasses that aren't "wildshape into combat forms." It is too easy to make the next one, and I doubt the rangers will complain if 3/4th of new primal spells for the next decade are "not smite because they are primal, but otherwise are smite spells". Now, as a fan of the 4e Warden, I would be good with that, but I think that is the kind of thing people need to go into with open eyes.

 

[Leatherhead]

Druid Circles:

Land (Alternate uses of channel nature)
Moon (Beast Forms)
Elements (Elemental Forms - eats the Wildfire subclass)
Forest (Plant Forms)

I mostly agree with this, but I consider Circle of the Sun a better name than Circle of the Forest for a plant based Druid.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I mostly agree with this, but I consider Circle of the Sun a better name than Circle of the Forest for a plant based Druid.

Nice! I like it. I couldn't come up with one on the spot, and I hadn't given it much thought ahead of posting. You've got it. I like how it's an indirect reference, just like Moon is. Mine was far too on-the-nose. Elemental might be better as Circle of the Storm (though I guess that's used as a domain.) But something that's perhaps more weather-related rather than Earth-Air-Fire-Water. More Mud-Wind-Brushfire-Rain.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I just said in my survey that I didn't think "elemental" beasts and attacks was the right way to make Moon druids more powerful. I'm fine with 2014E's decision to let druids wildshape into elementals separately at higher levels if they chose to, but it shouldn't be the default and only choice of power upgrade for Moon druids.

I also said in my survey that I thought that if they were really wanted to go with their three primary druidic foci that they gave through Channel Nature-- wildshaper, healer, and animal companion owner-- then what they really should do is rather than give them all three, that they let all base druids choose TWO of the three (one at 1st level, one at 2nd level), and then at 3rd level their subclass could be a more powerful version of whatever they chose at 1st.

This way players who didn't want to wildshape AT ALL could be a powerful healer druid with a small companion/familiar or a druidic "beastmaster" with additional healing and never have to deal with wildshaping at any point. Likewise you could have a wildshaper Moon druid with a minor in healing, or with a small animal familiar/companion if they wanted instead. Or any of the other combinations. With three options, that's a total of six pairings players could choose from.

 

[Amrûnril]

I think as soon as you have two "wildshape into combat forms" subclasses, then that will be the end of new subclasses that aren't "wildshape into combat forms." It is too easy to make the next one, and I doubt the rangers will complain if 3/4th of new primal spells for the next decade are "not smite because they are primal, but otherwise are smite spells". Now, as a fan of the 4e Warden, I would be good with that, but I think that is the kind of thing people need to go into with open eyes.

That's definitely a trap the developers could fall into, but I'm not convinced it would be automatic. In Tasha's, for instance, there are two Druid subclasses focused on what are essentially alternate forms of combat wildshaping (Circle of Spores and Circle of Stars), but that didn't stop the Circle of Wildfire from having a summoning ability as a substitute for wildshape.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Personal vote:
Have druids get two subclass splits (similar to how warlocks get patrons and pact type). First choose themes (such as animal, elements, star charts, fungi, etc.), then also choose between shapechange focus, pet focus, and neutral/caster/default-ish focus. Whether 'Moon' qualifies as the animal theme of the shapechange focus is a matter of semantics. Regardless, the druid that focuses on changing into brown bears at level 2 should not be focusing on turning into air elementals at level 10+ (those guys should be changing into dust devils or mephits at level 2).

 

[Minigiant]

Druid Circles:

Land (Alternate uses of channel nature)
Moon (Beast Forms)
Elements (Elemental Forms - eats the Wildfire subclass)
Forest (Plant Forms)

I mostly agree with this, but I consider Circle of the Sun a better name than Circle of the Forest for a plant based Druid.

Land/Earth- Caster Druid. Upgrades Healing Blossoms for more healling
Moon- Shapeshifter Druid. Upgrades Wildshape to stronger beasts
Stars-Hybrid Druid. Gains Starry Form
Sun- Elemental Druid. Gains Elemental Shape and Cauterize

 

[Amrûnril]

Land/Earth- Caster Druid. Upgrades Healing Blossoms for more healling
Moon- Shapeshifter Druid. Upgrades Wildshape to stronger beasts
Stars-Hybrid Druid. Gains Starry Form
Sun- Elemental Druid. Gains Elemental Shape and Cauterize

I mostly like this list, but I would prefer to include a summoning/animal companion focused option. Circle of the Primeval from the Giants UA had a good framework for this, albeit with flavor that was more specific than it needed to be. Putting aside the Circle of Stars (which is a good option in Tasha's but recent enough and narrow enough to wait for a revision), this would give a PHB lineup with a Beast Shape Druid, Elemental Druid, Healing Druid and Animal Compainion Druid, which I think would cover a wide range of character concepts and would have at least one subclass enhancing each Channel Nature option.