D&D General Should NPCs be built using the same rules as PCs?

[Aldarc]

Create a simpler version of the game with less moving parts on the PC side of things, and I will consider PCs and NPCs being built the same.

 

[TwoSix]

I dunno. I think that the underlying argument is about whether I should have any free time or sanity as a GM or whether I'm forced to stat out a whole bunch of needlessly fiddly NPCs that will see barely any play.

Fair. The "time and playability" is the underlying practical argument, the "how do PCs relate to NPCs and thus the setting at large" is a more philosophical one. Both are valid, and different posters will weight them differently.

For me, personally, they're both pretty important. I hate doing lots of prep, and I've never really grokked to the idea of the PCs just being one representative of a class for which there are 10,000 others with the exact same abilities.

 

[Cruentus]

Well, "should the PCs be special" is really kind of the underlying argument here. And that really depends on what sort of game and narrative you want to play.

At our table, we never ascribed to the “PCs are special” trope, in over 40 years of playing. We always played PCs and NPCs were built the same, and sometimes you could ‘leave off’ elements of the NPC write up, but you never gave them more than what the class and level allowed, unless you gave them magic items.

We never cared what the NPC could do, because we could all do it too, and if they had something special, it was very likely we got it for defeating them (spell, magic item, whatever). Our DM never felt it was too much work to build out NPCs, particularly with all of the generators out there.

Like others have mentioned, the vast majority of NPCs are 0 level “people” and only major players or antagonists would actually be built out into a full class with magic, etc.

 

[Cadence]

Did I miss above if anyone shared a story where players were put out because they didn't have things an NPC (used here as also possibly being a humanoid monster of a PC allowable race) did? And maybe how often has it happened?

---

It strikes me as strange to require non-adventuring characters to have the full skill sets that player characters have (like hit points and melee combat abilities) to get some of the spells or some level of skills or to have some specific martial training in one weapon, or whatever. This is for the simple reason that they aren't off adventuring. In this light, I find it kind of baffling trying to imagine how training and the economy and military preparedness would work in a world that did require it (Take, the 3/3.5/PF1e commoner class, for example).

As such, I don't see any reason non-adventuring NPCs should necessarily even vaguely match the extant PC classes in all cases. But sure, your PC should be able to do whatever the NPC did to get those powers - but in a lot of cases it seems like a strange thing to want since it would have involved you spending a lot of time not adventuring.

"Why can that sorcerer cast lightning bolt and not any other spells!?!? *"

"Because they trained with the servants of the blue dragon for decades and sacrificed everything else to become one of the chosen."

"But why wasn't that an option for my PC when I started out?!?!"

"Because you were starting out as an adventurer and not a servant of the Blue Dragon cult for decades?"

"But I could have started off older!?!?"

"Right, but we don't do that, we start off at 1st level. I mean, by your argument the fighters could have been veterans of the military and started with all kinds of extra things too? "

"But...."

"It's fine. If you want to come in at say 3rd level next time we have a party there, with just d6 total hp, no armor or weapon training, and no other magic except lightning bolt once per lunar month, we can do that."

" :-( "


* or have +x on some skill, or +x BAB with one particular weapon, or.... obviously with training with someone else.

 

[MichaelSomething]

It should not be required but it should always be an option.

 

[TwoSix]

Did I miss above if anyone shared a story where players were put out because they didn't have things an NPC (used here as also possibly being a humanoid monster of a PC allowable race) did? And maybe how often has it happened?

I feel like it's a hypothetical, but not an unwarranted one.

If someone who's been running games in that classic D&D style where all NPCs are generated using stat rolls, a few of those people with decent rolls can graduate from being 0th level to 1st level, and all advancement is done by following existing class progressions suddenly decides to have a human NPC with wildly variant magic and abilities, the players would be not be wrong to question the sudden change in premise.

My solution of "Ugh, gross, don't play like that then" wouldn't go over very well with those tables.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I feel like it's a hypothetical, but not an unwarranted one.

It feels like something that would very rarely come up in actual games.

In most games, PCs interact with tons of NPCs. The vast majority of them, either don’t have stats (countless innkeepers, merchants and questgivers) or the only stats that come up don’t reflect the full abilities of the NPC (you’re trying to get past the guard without a fight, so only her Perception and Insight are likely to come into play).

The NPC who DO tend to have a full write-up are those that the PCs are fighting (since so many stats concern fighting ability). But those are also precisely the NPCs that are more fully developed and whose different abilities would be justified by their different backstory. If we’re fighter the Order of the Immortal Eye, I would expect the NPCs to have abilities associated with the cult, and those abilities not to be available to PCs.

 

[Pedantic]

It feels like something that would very rarely come up in actual games.

In most games, PCs interact with tons of NPCs. The vast majority of them, either don’t have stats (countless innkeepers, merchants and questgivers) or the only stats that come up don’t reflect the full abilities of the NPC (you’re trying to get past the guard without a fight, so only her Perception and Insight are likely to come into play).

That's exactly the point though. You want the system to be sufficiently complete that those NPCs can do all the things PCs are doing (at the level of action declaration, not class ability) and be mechanically mediated in the same way. What happens when that guard tries to climb something? What if the innkeeper ends up armed when the PCs drag a fight into her bar?

The appeal, the whole reason you'd want this is to have the game answer those questions, and to get to see what happens as they play out. What if the party befriends that young wizard and persuaded him to spend a day building a stone fort to defend a nearby town with them? I'd like to know precisely how much stone he can conjure given X days to devote to the task, and I'd expect those numbers to align in a meaningful way with the party's wizard.

 

[Maxperson]

Simple enough question. What are your thoughts?

My thought are that this is not a yes or no question. Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.

 

[bloodtide]

If NPCs are built by consistent rules for themselves, even though those consistent rules are not the same as the consistent rules for PCs, would that not give both benefits?

Again, this is a bit pointless.

It only works if your playing a very limited game with a small rule book. Then you can but that small rulebook on a pedestal in the middle of the table and say "all NPCs are made as per the rules on page 11". And that is great for some games.

Other games though, not only have more rules and content, but also the DM can make stuff up on a whim. There are no time traveling Were elephants in the "offical rules", but a DM can still add them and give them a "time travel trunk" special ability.

It's pointless to stat out a lot of NPCs. Like the DM just needs a Seer NPC to cast "legend lore''. The DM can just say the NPC has that ability....or, if the players demand it, make the NPC a 12th level cleric. Ok....so the players do a happy dance as they forced the DM tp make the NPC a 12th level cleric. But it does not mater as all that NPC will ever do in the game is cast legend lore once.

It feels like something that would very rarely come up in actual games.

It does depend on the game.

Though we are really only talking about two types of NPCs: The Story NPCs and the Combat NPCs.

A story NPC has an ability as part of the story. The seer can see the future. The guard can see invisibility. The elven princess can polymorh into any animal. Some thing like that.

And the bad, exploitive player will say "I demand my character can polymorph at will into any animal just like the NPC elf princess!" as part of their exploit to ruin the game.

And the Combat NPC just has an ability for combat. The Fire Goblins can each shoot out balls of fire at will. And again, the bad, exploitive player will want to use and exploit that.