Should the DM "kill" a character?

[Faerl'Elghinn]

I really do believe that orcs are somewhat smarter than that. I don't see orcs as predators with an aminal-like intelligence. I think your average orc is able to reason and react at least as well as a large proportion of the inhabitants of this world, especially in combat situations.

At least that is the way I prefer to play my orcs against my PCs

Exactly. My description included Humans, Elves- everybody. As a PC, do you take an extra round to kill an orc you've already felled, or do you move on to one of the others, maybe saving someone else from taking hits? I submit that it would be a play mistake to linger, which is why I support my original statement. The Cleric's not getting up. He's down for the count. When the battle is won, then you make sure everybody's dead... IMO...

 

[random user]

Someone above (I think) suggested that a dead person was visibly distinct from an unconscious but soon to be dead (ie 6 seconds to 1 minute away from death) person or even an unconscious but stabilized person. How commonplace is this? What sort of cues would you look for?

 

[Agamemnon]

I'd say it depends somewhat on the situation. If the orc doing the killing (let's call him Brog for the sake of this argument) looks briefly around after the cleric is down and sees his mate Ugluk doing well against the thin girly-man in the robe and all his other buddies teaming up on the rest, what's to stop him from thinking: "Bah, these puny 'umans are easy. I might as well chop this one's head off."

In this scenario, Brog came to the conclusion that his pals were doing well enough even without his contribution and decided to take a trophy in the mean time.

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

I'd say it depends somewhat on the situation. If the orc doing the killing (let's call him Brog for the sake of this argument) looks briefly around after the cleric is down and sees his mate Ugluk doing well against the thin girly-man in the robe and all his other buddies teaming up on the rest, what's to stop him from thinking: "Bah, these puny 'umans are easy. I might as well chop this one's head off."

In this scenario, Brog came to the conclusion that his pals were doing well enough even without his contribution and decided to take a trophy in the mean time.

My point exactly. But if he looks around and says, "If I don't get rid of another one, we're all going to be mashed potatoes with green gravy in 3 rounds," why would he decide to keep hacking at the guy who's already down?

 

[JDJarvis]

The DM was in his rights as the DM is the one that plays the monsters.

An orc right out of the book is likely a chaotic evil marauding horror, the cleric in all likely hood represents everything the orc despises - non orcishness, weakness, failure in battle, holiness and more. An orc strikng out at to cetainy destroy this is acting in character as far as i can tell.

It isn't tactically "wrong" to stop and dispatch an opposing spell caster. The orc can't immediatley tell in the state of the cleric further damage = less likely to come back and dispatch the other orcs. One spell frm an ally and any downed character is no longer downed it would tactically foolish and strategically foolish for the orc to pass up the chance to hopefully dispatch a non orcish cleric forever.

PCs shouldn't be immune to defeat. Without the chance of defeat within the game the victories are meaningless.

 

[derelictjay]

Do I think killing a character after they've been dropped is wrong, or unfair. No the DM is fully in his/her rights to do so. I probably wouldn't have done it with the orc. But I have done it with undead and beasties.

The player's have to know, of course, that you, as the DM, are going to do things like this. Otherwise it will seem out of the blue, and as a DM that means some explaining of your actions (that's never a good thing).

 

[MissHappen]

Most people have covered a lot of what I'd say here, but I have a couple of other bits to offer.
First off, yes, I am a supporter of the idea that the players need to know that their characters are at risk. I don't have qualms about seeing a PC get dead... and players should understand that PCs can and will die. But, as was pointed out earlier, the game is the PC's Story... so it is much better to have them die in a plot-pleasing fashion, if possible. Generally, I have a set of guidelines about PC death...

1/ Sometimes, the dice just don't work for someone. THis is a judgement call. Would the death be dramatic? Fulfilling in a way? Good chance of revival? If so, let things fall. If not, then... you're the DM, fudge it. I don't mind giving the PCs a certain degree of leniency.
2/ Is the player too cocky? Heroism is a bit different than stupidity. And even though the PCs are the heroes, even heroes have to understand the concept of 'consequences'. I have found, many times, that an imminent PC death is often due to overconfidence or arrogance, or a simple failure to understand that the world is much bigger than you... in literature, hey, we call that 'hubris', and we all know what happens there. Sometimes foolhardy works... but most times, it doesn't.
Let them die.
3/ Boss fight. When I come to a crux point in the story, I play up the idea of a 'good death'. Against the nemesis of the story, there should be a lot of risk. People should feel the threat... but I give them opportunities to die well, if possible... and I prefer to let the dice do what they happen to be doing, unless it would totally kill the mood.
4/ Most important: my players KNOW that I have no compunctions about killing PCs, but they also know that I am fair. Communication = most important part of the game.

As for the specific issue of the Orc whomping on the cleric, I don't know the exact circumstances, but in general, I agree that it was a justifiable action... especially if the Orcs recognized the fellow as the cleric. With all the wacky magic/feats out there, a cleric might just be playing dead, and prepping some nasty spell. Whoever said it earlier said it right; kill the healers DEAD. And the spellcasters too.
If it was not a particularly important fight, I may have had the Orc pass the fallen cleric by, though. Save the death for the big scene.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I follow those who think it would be very hard for the orc cleric to know that the guy wasn't dead dead, especially in the heat of battle.

/QUOTE]



He doesn't know that he IS dead either. My bad guys usually don't waste attacks like this until higher level when a heal or mass heal can get them right back in the fight. But if they have an attack left and there's nothing else to swing at, why not bash him one more time for good measure? Or if he's blocked off and can't get to anyone else this round, CDG away!

Is it fair? Maybe not, but who said everything has to be fair? I've noticed pcs don't waver much when they're cdging held or sleeping monsters....

 

[MerakSpielman]

If my character was fighting a group of class-leveled orcs, he'd take out the cleric first and make sure he was dead.

You don't want the opposing group to have an active cleric. You don't even want them to have a potientally active cleric. If they fall down, there's a good chance they're just one healing potion away from being up again (my group allows healing potions to be administered to unconscious people - I'm not sure if this is an official rule).

Making sure the opponent's cleric is really and truly dead is just good tactics.

 

[Gnimish88]

Telling the dead from the dying...

It seems to me that alot of the assumption is that the orc could tell just by looking if a character was dead or dying. Do the PCs get the same advantage? In the games I have been in, once someone is down, they start making stabilize checks out of sight of the rest of the party. Unless someone goes over there and makes a heal check, then they don't know if the character is dead or not. In one fight, the player kept making rolls even though they stabilized on the first round. In another, they made rolls even though they were killed outright by the hit.

I would generally agree that orcs would likely fight the living before finishing off the dying, but if you do have an attack left over or can't get to the combat, hey, might as well. Particularly if the GM rules that the dead are visually distinct from the dying.

As far as LoTRs goes, if you are refering to the scene where the orc commander puts a spear through dying commander, memory serves that was during the mop up operations, which is what you do.