D&D 5E Should the Fighter's "Second Wind" ability grant temporary HP instead of regular HP?

[JRRNeiklot]

Hence my statement about "wait till the dang game comes out before freaking out commences."

Just want to comment on the "wait til it's out meme.


Yeah, we went through that with 4e, no thanks.

You can't judge the game just on a few internet rumors.
So I waited.

You can't judge the game based on playtest material.
So I waited.

You can't judge the game until it's released.
I waited.

You can't judge the game until you've actually read it.
I waited some more.

Reading is not enough, you have to play the game.
I played it.

One game is not enough, you have to play a campaign.

At what point am I allowed to have an opinion on something? A year after it's out? 10 years?

Wait, wait, wait - just another way of saying if my opinion isn't positive about a game, it doesn't count and should be dismissed.

 

[Emerikol]

It's not a case of just wanting gritty. It's a case of not wanting any non-magical healing besides a slow natural recovery.

Mike said that the DMG would have dials to turn the grittiness up or down. He also said second wind would have no replacements. They are basically acting as though the only motive is desire for gritty and not an aversion to non-magical healing.

So it's likely even HD won't have an option to be removed. They will just be adjusted for gritty results.

I think Mike Mearls is out of touch if he thinks there is not a significant contingent of players who hate all non-magical healing. I give up. I'm sure if the DMG proves me wrong I'll hear about it.

 

[Hussar]

Just want to comment on the "wait til it's out meme.


Yeah, we went through that with 4e, no thanks.

You can't judge the game just on a few internet rumors.
So I waited.

You can't judge the game based on playtest material.
So I waited.

You can't judge the game until it's released.
I waited.

You can't judge the game until you've actually read it.
I waited some more.

Reading is not enough, you have to play the game.
I played it.

One game is not enough, you have to play a campaign.

At what point am I allowed to have an opinion on something? A year after it's out? 10 years?

Wait, wait, wait - just another way of saying if my opinion isn't positive about a game, it doesn't count and should be dismissed.

Of course, when someone hasn't had a positive opinion on anything produced for D&D in almost 30 years, taking opinions with a grain of salt isn't necessarily a bad thing either.

 

[Hussar]

It's not a case of just wanting gritty. It's a case of not wanting any non-magical healing besides a slow natural recovery.

Mike said that the DMG would have dials to turn the grittiness up or down. He also said second wind would have no replacements. They are basically acting as though the only motive is desire for gritty and not an aversion to non-magical healing.

So it's likely even HD won't have an option to be removed. They will just be adjusted for gritty results.

I think Mike Mearls is out of touch if he thinks there is not a significant contingent of players who hate all non-magical healing. I give up. I'm sure if the DMG proves me wrong I'll hear about it.

The question remains - how slow do you want your non-magical healing? 3e allowed, with a skill check, 4 HP/level/day in healing. The slowest you could possibly heal in that system is about eight days. Eight days to go from -9 hp to full without a single healing spell cast. Is that too fast or too slow? In AD&D, the longest it was going to take to fully heal without magic was about a month. Again, too fast? Too slow? What do you want?

See, this is why this argument keeps circling around the drain. 1 day is too short, ok, fine. How about 3 days. Or 9 days? Pick a time frame and then adjust to there. How hard is that? In 4e it needs a sentence to adjust to whatever time frame you want. That't why the rules are so transparent. The baseline rules are set at 4e level - it takes a day to heal. But adjusting that is so bloody easy that I am utterly baffled that it would even be an issue.

How much hand holding do you expect from the rules?

 

[Emerikol]

Did you read what I wrote? I probably want at best 1hp per level per day without magic. This is not the issue.

We would like alternative mechanics that allow us to play without things like second wind and HD. We don't like martial healing. It doesn't have the feel we want in a game. If they'd offered alternative mechanics for these things we'd all be fine.

Mike Mearls has said there will be no replacements for second wind. The moment he said that I knew he wasn't including me in his plans for D&D.

 

[FireLance]

I still think that perhaps the simplest fix for those who want slower natural healing is to redefine a short rest as one day, and a long rest as one week. I don't think it would strain anyone's sense of verisimilitude if fighters non-magically recovered 1d10+level hp per day [Edit: or maybe not, if as indicated above, the expectation is 1 hp/level]. This does mean that spellcasters will now need a week's rest to regain all their spells, but since that would force them to cast spells sparingly, it would help emphasize the rarity of magic and thus, could also be seen as a bonus.

 

[Tony Semana]

Watching the hysterics over this issue and I'm moved to observe that, while magical healing is perfectly okay to include in the game, it better not include an actual, documented physical phenomena.

SW is a thing. It's experienced most effectively by trained subjects and athletes, runners and triathletes, by martial artists and boxers, by soldiers, fire fighters. It's attributed to various biological and mental circumstances; metabolic switching / the krebs cycle, lactate shuttle / heartrate training, endorphins, or pure mental fortitude. Whatever the true cause (I'm sure different athletes and fighters get there in different ways), it's been around for years, documented in fiction and movies and studied in labs. It's a thing.

[sblock=As far as rules go, this will fall on deaf ears to those refusing to accept table-adjudication/common sense soI am neither simulationist, or gamist, I am a pragmatist, I want the game to make sense, be practical, while delivering a fantastic narrative. Sometimes my stories are high-fantasy, sometimes they are low-world black-regiment dark and gritty. SW has more of a place in the black stories than the bright and heroic.

Second Wind is a phenomena that happens during physical exertion, not at any other time. Not necessarily `combat` as a game state, but any situation wherein your hp is getting knocked down:
- straight combat
- skills combat - running a gauntlet of swinging obstacles/missles (Indi running from the boulder), 'turtling' over an innocent and taking the brunt of a continuous attack/rock fall/avalanche/cave collapse, a non-lethal combat challenge
- feats of endurance - holding up under torture, to run and continue running

This is simply using the RAW and not implying any other loophole or conflating it with other rules such as Short Rest.

To the PC that says, I rest, I SW, I rest, I SW, to 'heal'. As Mike says it's not the goal of the game to prevent that kind of play. But it IS intentionally gaming the RAW and has no place at our table (sorry, if you've ever experienced SW through physical exertion you know it doesn't work that way).

Second Wind IS NOT healing, it is a well of reserves. That some choose to treat it as such because THEIR twisted and myopic reading of the rules says so BUT, AT THE SAME TIME are railing against it because it's unrealistic, impractical or broken (see the SW+SR spam 'idea') only because that's the way THEY choose to apply it? My only response is "That's all you, baby"; THEIR choice of interpretation, THEIR choice of reaction, THEIR problem, no one else's, certainly not WotC's or the designers'. Take the childish tantrums and go. Godspeed.

Here's a gritty setting; NO magical healing, include SW + inspirational surges, Healing Kit and Potions (as combat drugs) only. That's pretty much combat. BUT that would require table-adjudication + house-ruling, but since you're reading this section I know you're okay with it that [/sblock]
The idea of railing against second wind as 'non-magical healing' but being perfectly okay WITH magical healing BECAUSE you want gritty is.. well, it's 'curious' to put it kindly.

 

[Emerikol]

I think there is some confusion. I do not want non-magical healing period. That is true whether I'm playing a gritty game or a super high fantasy heroic game. I tend to play both anyway depending on the PCs level.

Second wind does not feel right ever. I agree that there is a real world concept of second wind. I'm not confusing what a dnd mechanic that happens to share a name with a real world concept.

First I am dubious of stamina as a hit point component. In real life it recovers way to fast as it relates to combats taking literally a minute or two. It would also be affected more by a full move than it would by any parrying away of a sword thrust.

I much prefer hit points composed of meat, defensive fighting skill, and perhaps a little divine favor or luck. So as you level up you get far better at minimizing the real damage. Healing could be proportional based on level and I'd be fine with that. CLW would do something like 5+targets level hit points of healing. Multiply that by spell level and you got it covered.

Now I speak for myself. But gritty is beside the point for me.

 

[FireLance]

I much prefer hit points composed of meat, defensive fighting skill, and perhaps a little divine favor or luck. So as you level up you get far better at minimizing the real damage. Healing could be proportional based on level and I'd be fine with that. CLW would do something like 5+targets level hit points of healing. Multiply that by spell level and you got it covered.

I don't think we disagree about what hit points represent. I think the key issue is how quickly you can restore the non-meat portions of hit points (as you mentioned above, defensive fighting skill, divine favour or luck) without magical means. I'm quite prepared to accept that these can come back quite quickly, so that one hour after a fighter's defensive skill turns a potentially fatal 8-hp damage sword thrust into a mere scratch, he can do it again without needing magical healing.

 

[Emerikol]

I don't think we disagree about what hit points represent. I think the key issue is how quickly you can restore the non-meat portions of hit points (as you mentioned above, defensive fighting skill, divine favour or luck) without magical means. I'm quite prepared to accept that these can come back quite quickly, so that one hour after a fighter's defensive skill turns a potentially fatal 8-hp damage sword thrust into a mere scratch, he can do it again without needing magical healing.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that for a medium humanoid that the meat part is hit points up to their constitution score. All hit points above that score represent these other things. I am of the proportional school of thought on this. I see each hit as removing some from the top and some from the bottom. What is removed from the bottom may in fact be fractional at times. If a fighter has 64 hit points and takes 8 damage then 2 of that damage is meat and 6 is other stuff. So when healing occurs what is happening is the meat is being restored and by default the rest automatically comes back. That is why I favor proportional healing based upon the level of the target. Your CLW will actually do more hit points when cast on a 10th level character than it does on a 2nd level character.

You can't remove from the top without removing some smaller part from the bottom. I mean YOU could but I would not. My view would not allow it is what I'm saying.

This system has stood me well for all versions of D&D except 4e and 5e. I had hoped 5e would provide options that would enable me to get back to my hit point definition. They won't do that by their own words. So I will likely play a different game that better suits my style. I don't feel the houserule job is worth it for a company that doesn't seem to care that much for my style. As I've said elsewhere, thac0 made it into the DMG as an option. But no alterative to second wind exists. To me thats an out of touch developer crew.

I'm not really angry. I'm just determined. I don't want to help them succeed though they likely will anyway I'm not saying I'll make a difference. I don't want to be a part of their success. I'll go help the game developer that is working hard to provide support for my playstyle. I'm thinking Castles and Crusades (C&C).