Should the Greatsword be d12?

[Anthony Jackson]

The evidence suggests that at d10 it's inferior to most other 2H weapons in most other circumstances. Upping it to d12, however, makes it superior in a limited set of circumstances, and yet still inferior in many.

Incorrect. At d10 it's inferior to other 2H weapons (except the falchion; it's always superior to the falchion) unless you're dealing with minions or are using attacks that deliver non-damaging conditions, which is quite commonly the case for a fighter. At d12, it's superior to all other weapons.

 

[Kzach]

Incorrect. At d10 it's inferior to other 2H weapons (except the falchion; it's always superior to the falchion) unless you're dealing with minions or are using attacks that deliver non-damaging conditions, which is quite commonly the case for a fighter. At d12, it's superior to all other weapons.

Always superior to the falchion?

At 1st to 10th, a crit on a falchion is 10-16, greatsword 10.

At 11th to 20th, a crit on a falchion is 12-24, a greatsword 10.

At 21st to 30th, a crit on a falchion is 14-32, a greatsword 10.

How again is the greatsword superior in all ways to the falchion?

I'd like to also dispute the claim that fighters are going to engage minions often. If a fighter is engaging minions, then he's doing his job wrong. He should be avoiding minions and doing his level best to engage the big guns. Minions are for controllers and strikers to deal with, not fighters.

 

[DLichen]

If you're going by DPR, the falchion is almost always going to be worse unless you factor in gauntlets of destruction or weapon mastery. At low levels the falchion is just bad, but at least it has high level support going for it.

 

[Anthony Jackson]

Always superior to the falchion?

Yes.

At T1, the extra crit gives +0.25 damage per attack. The reduced damage dice gives -(0.025 * (hit chance +3) * (multiples of W)) damage per attack, so with 1W attacks the GS is better for hit chance > 35%, for 2W it's better for hit chance > 10%. Average, including encounter and daily powers, will be 1.3-1.4W, making the greatsword better for hit chance > 20%.
At T2, the extra crit gives +0.5 damage per attack; reduced damage is the same. Average multiples of W is about 1.8, so if hit chance > 40% you're better off with the GS.
AT T3, the extra crit, with improved critical, gives +1.5 damage per attack; reduced damage is (-0.025 * (hit chance + 6) * (multiples of W)) damage per attack. Average multiples of W is about 3, so at this point the falchion is better if hit chance < 70%.

Okay, the falchion is a viable T3 weapon.

I'd like to also dispute the claim that fighters are going to engage minions often. If a fighter is engaging minions, then he's doing his job wrong. He should be avoiding minions and doing his level best to engage the big guns. Minions are for controllers and strikers to deal with, not fighters.

If minions are what you're fighting, he'll be fighting minions (and almost certainly taking opportunity attacks), and fighters are better minion-killers than strikers (cleave is superior to any striker at-will for clearing minions).

 

[keterys]

Again I'm not seeing how you come to this conclusion based on the evidence.

Hmm, I'm not the best at explaining such things, but I can try:

Read this carefully, if you haven't.

Greataxe > Maul if 6.5t > 4.5n, which is likely but marginal.
Greataxe > Greatsword if 5.5n + 6.5t > B, which almost certainly true.
Maul > Greatsword if 10n > B, which is very likely.

This is purely from a damage perspective, over 20 attacks. So, let's looking at characters at 3rd, 9th, 13th, and 19th for a moment.

3rd: +4 Str, +1 Feat, +1 Enh. B=6, 2 Encounter powers for 2W over say 2 encounters, 1 Daily for 3W, n = (3+2*2*2+15)/20 = 1.3

Greataxe is .65 > Maul which is 7 > Greatsword, over 20 attacks or .03 per hit better for Greataxe over Maul and .35 per hit better for Maul over Greatsword

9th: +5 Str, +1 Feat, +3 Enh. B=9, 3 Enc for 2W over 2 encounters, 2 Daily for 3W, n = (3*2+2*3*2+12)/20 = 1.5

Maul is .25 > Greataxe which is 5.75 > Greatsword, over 20 attacks or .01 per hit better for Maul over Greataxe and .29 per hit better for Greataxe over Greatsword

13th: +5 Str, +2 Feat, +3 Enh. B=10, 4 Enc for 2W over 2 encounters, 2 Daily for 3W, n = (3*2+2*4*2+10)/20 = 1.6

Greataxe is 5.8 > Maul which is 6 > Greatsword, over 20 attacks or .29 per hit better for Greataxe over Maul and .3 per hit better for Maul over Greatsword

19th: +6 Str, +2 Feat, +5 Enh. B=13, 4 Enc for 2.5W over 2 encounters, 2 Daily for 3W, n = (3*2+2.5*4*2+10)/20 = 1.8

Greataxe is 4.9 > Maul which is 5 > Greatsword, over 20 attacks or .25 per hit better for Greataxe over Maul and .25 per hit better for Maul over Greatsword

So, no matter what the damage difference is fairly negligible. Meanwhilst, the greatsword holds an advantage whenever
1) You're attacking a minion
2) You're attacking someone low enough on health
3) You care about the on hit effect of your power

So, if you had to look at it in feat or feature form, would you prefer?

1) You deal .4 damage more per attack
2) You kill 2% more enemies (20% of foes, 10% of the time) and you hit with special effects 10% more often (ie, 11 hits instead of 10)

At a minimum, that's clearly a viable choice.

If you make the greatsword d12, then it's just a landslide win as it will both deal more damage, kill more enemies, and land special effects more often.

Let's look at a 3rd level paladin for a moment and see what powers he's likely to have, for whether he might care about hitting versus hitting harder when he does...

At-Wills: Bolstering Strike and Enfeebling Strike
Enc 1, 3: Fearsome Smite and Righteous Smite
Daily would use an implement, so can ignore for now.

So, 10% more temp hp gained over the 20 attacks, 10% more often giving the enemy -2 attack

All in all, works out to 7.65 less damage dealt, 10% more minions killed, 5 more temp hp and 20% less of one attack - call that another point or two of damage intercepted.

Certainly seems viable enough to me. A fraction less damage per hit for better at doing their job. That's a real choice and unless I was building such a character explicitly for backup damage, I'd almost always side with being better at the rest of the job.

Err... falchion is high crit. So on a crit, it does an absolute minium of 10, not 8, and can beat the GS by up to 6 points.

Sure, but the .5 damage per W on normal hits you get from the greatsword is a benefit too, so the extra 2d4 * t - (2 * W) that comes when either crits doesn't automatically boost the falchion ahead... and the falchion suffers on multiple W attacks as well.

Of course, that all then falls apart at paragon and epic where the falchion is just far and away the superior choice.

The falchion is a poor choice at heroic, an equitable choice at paragon, and slightly better at epic.

 

[Kzach]

Ok, two things.

Does any of this take into account median damage?

What effect would giving all weapons a +1 damage bonus if they can be wielded with 2H (that includes versatile weapons and all 2H weapons, and works for halflings as well for weapons they have to wield 2H)?

If minions are what you're fighting, he'll be fighting minions (and almost certainly taking opportunity attacks), and fighters are better minion-killers than strikers (cleave is superior to any striker at-will for clearing minions).

I most emphatically disagree. Twin Strike, is just one for instance. And fighters taking on minions is just dumb. It's a waste of their defender role. But that's separate argument.

 

[erik_the_guy]

+4 is low. A level 1 character probably has +4 (18 stat); a level 10 character probably has +8 (20 stat, +2 weapon, +1 feat), a level 11 +9 (21 stat, +2 weapon, +2 feat), a level 20 +12 (23 stat, +4 weapon, +2 feat), a level 21 +14 (24 stat, +4 weapon, +3 feat), a level 30 +17 (26 stat, +6 weapon, +3 feat) so I recommend using +6, +11, and +15.

Modifying the stat modifier to damage does not change the comparison too much. I fiddled with using no damage modifier, a high one, and none at all. I think that a +4 or +5 damage modifier is about average for a great weapon fighter, and changing the damage modifier by one barely results in a change for the numbers I listed. I haven't tested this at higher levels, but keep in mind that at level 20 a +1 bonus to damage is very little, but a +1 bonus to hit is significant.

 

[erik_the_guy]

I just want to clarify what I was saying about the greatsword VS greataxe. My general claim was that for a melee basic attack in a range that is average for a great weapon fighter the greataxe does a smidgen more damage on average. The Numbers are likely different at various points as you level up but I'm guessing that, on average, the numbers are about the same overall through epic teir.
As you level the greataxes damage becomes higher (it deals more damage as your higher level powers deal more [W]). What was +1 damage over the greatsword in heroic teir becomes +2, 3, ... as you use higher level powers. However, even at epic teir, the greatsword is still only at +1 to hit over the greataxe.
The point is that this is balanced because a +1 to damage at level 30 is nothing, while +5 to damage is significant. On the other hand, +1 to hit at level 30 is just as valuable as a +1 to hit at level 1 (this is one of the balance factors that 4e trumps the other editions at).

As far as the bastard sword goes, it is not a great option to use over the greatsword. The +1 damage is nice at level one, but since it is not multiplied by 7[W] or the like it is still only +1 at level 30. This is not a lot of damage for a feat (compared to weapon focus, +3 at level 30). Switching from greatsword to bastard sword is simply an option for a fighter who doesn't have anything better to do with his feats.

With attacks that have high [W] the axe and sword are balanced. The sword has a bit better chance to hit with all that damage, but the axe gets a major benefit if you actually do hit. The sword is best for those attacks which have other effects if you do hit (such as ongoing damage). IMO the axe is better for attacks that do half damage on a miss.

 

[keterys]

Depends on how things are setup, but the striker's damage bonus is entirely wasted on minions so they're best off on things with actual hit points. Cleave and Sure Strike are suited for minions and things like Sweeping Blow and Come and Get It will result in frequently attacking minions.

Paladins don't hit minions as often, but even they have some bursts that may.

 

[Ahrimon]

Going back to the OP's question and addressing some aspects of it. I'd have to say it needs something. The greatsword is underpowered. Now I don't give two craps about the 2h weapon balance. Adjust that to your hearts content. My problem is that a bastard sword is equal to a greatsword when weilded 1h and better when weilded 2h. And for those saying "but it uses a feat so it should be better" I have to say I partially agree with you. After spending a feat it should be better than a longsword. But not better than a greatsword

I know 4e isn't supposed to model reality and be a fast flowing fun game. But I think this is going to be a real mental block for me.

Of course since it's a fast flowing fun game why don't we just pull out the bastard sword and add the following feat:

Anime Sword Weilder
Prerequisites: none
Effect: You can weild a greatsword as a one handed weapon. Additionally your so awesome that you get a +1 bonus to damage when weilding a greatsword in two hands.

Now we don't even need that extra sword type taking up possible treasure. Sounds a bit rediculous, but mechanically, is it any different from weapon proficiency bastard sword?

And FWIW I'm an anime fan so I'm not trying to make fun of the genre.