D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

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TanithT

First Post
And I take it you'd be totally okay if WotC filled the pages with semi-naked men rescuing totally naked men? Like, no women anywhere.

Well, I would be. That would be hot. ;) However, I recognize that as much fun as it would be to have D&D cater to my personal tastes in who gets sexualized, it's not really appropriate to depict people who are supposed to be adventurers in a way that trivializes them into sexy objects for my viewing pleasure who aren't good for much of anything else.
 

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
First of all, pictures in D&D books aren't Art, they are Illustrations (this is a very important distinction, artists speak for themselves, Illustrators speak for their clients), despite they being commonly called art, illustrations aren't speech, they are instead communication tools, calling for more tame representations detracts nothing from the person drawing and painting them, they are free to depict whatever they want on their spare time.

You seem to be saying that any artwork that's created for commercial purposes isn't actually art at all. I fundamentally disagree - illustrations, even if made on commission, are artwork. Da Vinci is currently believed to have painted the Mona Lisa on commission from Francesco del Giocondo (who wanted a portrait of his wife, Lisa) - does that mean that it's not art?

I believe that any creative endeavor, regardless of the circumstances of its genesis, is speech (though to be clear, how understandable that speech is is something else again).
 

Obryn

Hero
Well, I would be. That would be hot. ;) However, I recognize that as much fun as it would be to have D&D cater to my personal tastes in who gets sexualized, it's not really appropriate to depict people who are supposed to be adventurers in a way that trivializes them into sexy objects for my viewing pleasure who aren't good for much of anything else.
PRUDE!!

No, but really, I want to hear the answer here.

-O
 

The Choice

First Post
Yes, I am serious. Prudery is the surface manifestation of deeply ingrained bigotry. And I maintain, some of the biggest prudes are also the worst hypocrites with their own skeletons. My wisdom over the years has taught me to ignore liars completely.

I am not a hypocrite when I say I want fewer pieces of cheesecake art in D&D books. I am not a bigot out to put women in garb that covers them from the top of their heads down to their ankles. What I'm saying (and I believe others in this thread and others like this one across the internet are saying) is that in a game where you play as explorers of dark places filled with angry critters, the art should portray that reality in what those characters wear. You know, more of this: http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/

Less of this: http://w.mawebcenters.com/static/ec...6319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/s/a/savant.jpeg



Human beings are sexual though, both men and women. It's the basic truth of the matter. Art should reflect that, we are all animals who find various aspect of each other either attractive or repulsive. But neither did I say we need or should want outright pornographic art in the rules books (because, frankly, some DMs already have enough of a hard time keeping their player's focus!!)



I'm neither a prude, nor a hypocrite, so I wouldn't have any such problem. D&D is not a child's game, children play with iPads these days, and have ready access to far more filthy material a few clicks away. Nobody's tender young mind is going to be blown to hell from seeing a nipple (sheesh).

Nobody in this thread is advocating for removing any mention of sexuality in D&D (heck, I'm all for diversifying the portrayal of romantic relationships in D&D so that it includes same-sex couples). I simply think, most of the time, it isn't genre appropriate to have illustrations depicting that (when it is, by all means, fire away).

I started playing this game when I was 11. If I ever have kids, chances are they'll sit at my table at around that age. I don't want to turn my (potential) daughter away from a game I love because she can't find a picture that represents the image of a character she has in her mind.

Tasteful nudity would (should) even be OK, but that's not even what I'm advocating. I want art to have a variety of subjects represented, from the seductive succubus to the swarthy pirate. Denying attractive model's attractiveness is removing one of the central themes of art, in general though, and that's as old as the human race. Painting beautiful art of attractive models is hardly new or controversial.

Again, context is everything: that succubus is a-okay, and so's that pirate. But Seoni's "dress" (robe?), for exemple (http://www.black-book-editions.fr//contenu/image/Images_divers/JDR_Pathfinder/Icone_PF2_Seoni.jpg) is inappropriate for a woman who goes down into dark, underground ruins where she's liable to get stabbed, punched, clawed, bit by a host of critters. I'm fine with everybody looking attractive and pretty, just be practical with your apparel when it's required.

I feel sad for the human species if we are so easily offended at the prospect of seeing beautiful or disturbing subjects portrayed in art. It's art, nobody ever died from opening their eyes (and their minds).

Nobody's being offended. The only reason any of us are advocating for greater diversity in art and actual equal portrayal of men and women in art and prose is so that it more accurately portrays the reality of the game world and so that the game appeals to a wider audience who might be turned away from it otherwise.

It's time D&D stepped away from being the sole province of straight, white males, period.
 

TanithT

First Post
PRUDE!!

No, but really, I want to hear the answer here.

-O

As far as I can tell, his working definition of prude is 'anyone who doesn't want D&D to be all het male porn, all the time, even when it's stupid to porn up adventurers while they are actually adventuring.' Because women always wear makeup and the finest lingerie to fight kobolds three days underground into a dungeon, and their hair should also be perfect. Same goes for fighting remorhaz on a frozen glacier. Because, magic nipple tassels grant +5 to armor and full protection from elements. Or something like that.

The answer he gave was pretty disingenuous, but I don't think he actually has the concept of what D&D would look like if it cartoon-sexed-up all the males with ridiculous clothing and poses on the battlefield, to the point that none of them could be taken seriously as real adventurers. The Hawkeye Initiative has the right idea for showing what that would actually look like in comic book form. And no, I don't think most men would consider that product to be for them, or want to buy it, or consider it a realistic depiction of the kinds of heroes they might want to play or tell stories about.
 

Inclusiveness should fit--I don't want it to feel artificial. I'm currently in an Oriental Adventures campaign that I cooked up. Caucasians have absolutely no place in that campaign. I might allow some turkic ethnicities for some Mongolian-esque characters if a player really wants to, but otherwise human ethnicities are all loosely east, southeast, or south asian.

In the same manner, if I'm running a european flavored campaign, the only time I want other ethnicities is when it makes sense (such as a rare traveller).

My OA campaign is likely set on an entire asian-themed planet, and I have no problem making entire such planets based on other cultures. I usually include more than one (sometimes many) human ethnicities on a world, but I don't want to express the entire range of human diversity unless the world is based on expressing all that.

So I guess what I'm saying is that my idea of believability is a bit more historical than video gamey.

As far as art, I like having a non-representative degree of diversity--since PCs and iconic NPCs often stand out as different. For scenes of regular citizens of the world though--make the art representative. I'm also not expecting strict historical accuracy. It's okay if weapons and armor are a little more stylized than they should be, but don't overdo it.

As far as representing sexuality, I'm with those who say it need not be represented at all in official publications.

I guess people's expectations for what they want their D&D to look like are influenced by the fantasy they are familiar with. My early exposure was through Tolkien, and the rare fantasy movie like Willow or Ladyhawke, or Conan the Barbarian (80s version) that was available. So I have a certain image in my head when I think of traditional fantasy, and D&D settings follow many of the same conventions.

For those whose initial exposure to fantasy is completely different, the style of fantasy that I expect from a (traditional) D&D experience is probably some foreign yesterday's style. I like other styles, genres, setting conventions too, but when I think D&D, I think of the traditional fantasy it came from and want it to default to it's roots and branch out to additional alternatives.
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
As far as I can tell, his working definition of prude is 'anyone who doesn't want D&D to be all het male porn...

As far as I can tell, his working definition of prude is anyone who doesn't share the same opinion or preference as he does...:erm:
 

The Choice

First Post
Inclusiveness should fit--I don't want it to feel artificial. I'm currently in an Oriental Adventures campaign that I cooked up. Caucasians have absolutely no place in that campaign. I might allow some turkic ethnicities for some Mongolian-esque characters if a player really wants to, but otherwise human ethnicities are all loosely east, southeast, or south asian.

In the same manner, if I'm running a european flavored campaign, the only time I want other ethnicities is when it makes sense (such as a rare traveller).

My OA campaign is likely set on an entire asian-themed planet, and I have no problem making entire such planets based on other cultures. I usually include more than one (sometimes many) human ethnicities on a world, but I don't want to express the entire range of human diversity unless the world is based on expressing all that.

So I guess what I'm saying is that my idea of believability is a bit more historical than video gamey.

The problem with this idea of racially homogenous societies is that it makes no sense when you consider the practical implications of magic; scrying and teleportation makes it possible for inhabitants of different areas of the world to travel to other parts of that same world. So a wizard from fantasy not-Africa is likely to be found in the court of a ruler of fantasy not-England, etc. And that's not even considering inter-planar travel.

As far as representing sexuality, I'm with those who say it need not be represented at all in official publications.

It already does (background characters have lovers, husbands, wives, etc.). The problem is that it only presents one form of sexuality. I don't think people would riot in the street if, in some setting book, the king of Somesuch land had a husband. I certainly wouldn't bat an eye at that.

I guess people's expectations for what they want their D&D to look like are influenced by the fantasy they are familiar with. My early exposure was through Tolkien, and the rare fantasy movie like Willow or Ladyhawke, or Conan the Barbarian (80s version) that was available. So I have a certain image in my head when I think of traditional fantasy, and D&D settings follow many of the same conventions.

For those whose initial exposure to fantasy is completely different, the style of fantasy that I expect from a (traditional) D&D experience is probably some foreign yesterday's style. I like other styles, genres, setting conventions too, but when I think D&D, I think of the traditional fantasy it came from and want it to default to it's roots and branch out to additional alternatives.

The problem is that D&D isn't traditional fantasy. It really never was, because its magic changes the entire structure of the world. It was inspired by it, but the level, breadth and depth to which magic suffuses the system makes a lot of traditional assumptions from those sources completely incorrect.

In a much less magical system, those assumptions would be fine, but in any game with teleportation and scrying, they simply don't work.
 

Hussar

Legend
In the same manner, if I'm running a european flavored campaign, the only time I want other ethnicities is when it makes sense (such as a rare traveller).

Huh?

What time period Europe are you talking about? And what part of Europe. I mean, Roman Empire? You're going to have some serious ethnic diversity there. Southern Europe? Lots of ethnic diversity.

The idea that Europe has ever been ethnically homogeneous hasn't been true since the advent of the Roman empire. You've got Silk Road merchants traveling back and forth. Romans brought back lots of non-white people for a couple of hundred years. I'm pretty sure that people with much better grasps on history than me could point to other eras as well.

And that's without all the fantasy stuff added in.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Huh?

What time period Europe are you talking about? And what part of Europe. I mean, Roman Empire? You're going to have some serious ethnic diversity there. Southern Europe? Lots of ethnic diversity.

The idea that Europe has ever been ethnically homogeneous hasn't been true since the advent of the Roman empire. You've got Silk Road merchants traveling back and forth. Romans brought back lots of non-white people for a couple of hundred years. I'm pretty sure that people with much better grasps on history than me could point to other eras as well.

And that's without all the fantasy stuff added in.

About the only part of Europe that is even semi-close to "ethnically limited" is probably England even then you've got the Welsh, Scots, Vikings/Scandanavian-types, Moors, Celts, Normans, and any number of other northern European peoples.
 

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