Should there just be one sort of elf?

[Aeolius]

sheesh...no love for sea elves??? They are a core race, in my games. Without them, there would be no malenti. In my games, I need sea elves and sylvan elves as the male parents of salt hags and woodhags, respectively.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

sheesh...no love for sea elves??? They are a core race, in my games. Without them, there would be no malenti. In my games, I need sea elves and sylvan elves as the male parents of salt hags and woodhags, respectively.

They're a good example of a campaign setting-specific race.

I really like all the stuff with malenti and the parallel evolution/links between sahuagin and drow that has grown up since the 2E era, but as good as it is, I'm not sure it really needs to be in the "core setting."

But sea elves are a much different critter than standard elves, if only by the virtue of their environment. My main thrust in this thread was to cut down on the "we're like regular elves, but we live the next hill over, part our hair to the left instead of the right, and thus have different stats and a different favored class" jazz.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The following musings are about sub-races in general, not just elf sub-races:

There should still be "sub-races". Shield Dwarves should not be the same as Gold Dwarves.

But I guess it's alright if they all share the same basic ability tree. After that, there should be sub-racial/cultural differences, especially for the Forgotten Realms (and, frankly, for every campaign that could use them, including homebrew campaigns).

I like how subrace and "culture" (= home region) interact in the Player's Guide to Faerûn:

For every race (not subrace), there's a number of home regions. Every home region has a list of sub-races that are common/possible there. Depending on your home region, you get access to regional feats, get extra starting languages (the regional languages), and some bonus equipment.


I could see something like that in FR 4e (and maybe 4e in general):

Races have sub-races, but the abilities are the same (or maybe the initial abilities you get at level 1 vary slightly, like sun elves getting +2 Int instead of +2 Dex). Then there's different cultures (usually a regional/racial combination, like "humans from the Moonshaes" or "elf from the Moonshaes") that sometimes require specific subraces (maybe there's "moon elf from Evermeet" and "sun elf from Evermeet").
This culture will have some impact on your abilities (like extra class skills, skill bonuses, weapon proficiencies, extra languages, and so on) and grant you access to cultural feats you can use to adapt the character to his culture.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Races have sub-races, but the abilities are the same (or maybe the initial abilities you get at level 1 vary slightly, like sun elves getting +2 Int instead of +2 Dex).

No, no, a thousand times no. Elves can either be the best choice as rogues or they can be the best choice for wizards. There should not be a flavor of elf for every base class.

 

[Scribble]

No, no, a thousand times no. Elves can either be the best choice as rogues or they can be the best choice for wizards. There should not be a flavor of elf for every base class.

Shrug... I think maybe the problem stems from a "power gaming" approach...

Things like Drow, to me, represented a creation based on the idea of what would be a cool monster/freak out my players... I know, I'll take a race known for its happy go luckiness and love of all things good... and make them into a twisted dark hate filled race...

The current sub races were designed to give everyone the ability to play whatever combined with whatever...

I don't think this makes sub races inherently bad though, so I wouldn't want a system that ultimately destroys the ability for them to have an impact on the game. Otherwise you risk loosing the ability to make cool new stuff...

 

[Gentlegamer]

For the record, I also wouldn't mind if Drow are officially extinct in the new edition.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Shrug... I think maybe the problem stems from a "power gaming" approach...

In other words, 99 percent of the reason players use sub-races in a game.

I don't think this makes sub races inherently bad though, so I wouldn't want a system that ultimately destroys the ability for them to have an impact on the game. Otherwise you risk loosing the ability to make cool new stuff...

There's always the ability to make cool new stuff. I just don't want official support for this nonsense.

Every column inch wasted on giving new stats for a different culture of a PHB race is a column inch not spent on other fluff or on entirely new crunch that's not devoted to making Race X extra-super-duper-keen.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Mechancially, one race for elves, dwarves, etc. Go crazy on the fluff for the different cultures. Introduce an "underdark" racial template.

Underdark + elf = drow
Underdark + dwarf = gray dwarf
Underdark + halfling = gnome

In addition, gnomes are all proficient in dual knife fighting, and can summon a black housecast from a wooden figurine. However, they have the disadvantage that they will go into angsty monologues about the state of their flower gardens, for no apparent reason.

 

[IanB]

Regional feats (or talents?) can easily make enough of a distinction for people who want them, there's no need to build it into the character stats at generation, I think.

 

[Scribble]

In other words, 99 percent of the reason players use sub-races in a game.

Shrug? To each his own game play style.

There's always the ability to make cool new stuff. I just don't want official support for this nonsense.

What one calls nonsense another calls fun.

Every column inch wasted on giving new stats for a different culture of a PHB race is a column inch not spent on other fluff or on entirely new crunch that's not devoted to making Race X extra-super-duper-keen.

I doubt that... They'll just load up on something else thats sells source books.