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D&D 5E Should we let the 'Wierd Wizard Show' begin in 5e?

Is it time to start the Wierd Wizard show and leave non-casters out of the game?


  • Poll closed .

Elf Witch

First Post
I think that's fair to say. My answer to the issue posits both.

I think the 3e wizard becomes both overpowered and hard to play at high levels due to the sheer number of spells he has and the almost unlimited flexibility he has in using them. There's no reason he needs 4 spells per day of each spell level. I also think that spell use tiring or draining the caster can be implemented without being crippling, and that it could stand to be easier to disrupt spellcasting.

I would also like to see, however, martial characters with better options; proficiency with a broader array of weapons, better expertise with their weapon of choice, some fun high-level abilities, an advantage in the action economy, an advantage in saving throws, and the advantage of a more lethal health system. There are a lot of ways to make fighters better without resorting to per-day abilities or giving them powers that should be reserved for magicians.

Personally I find everything starts getting hard to handle at higher levels. Not just the casters but the fighters getting four attacks people with max out skill points that make it impossible to fail a check.

I think spells should be able to be disrupted but not automatically I have found in the earlier levels hitting a mage who is casting and doing damage can make it hard for the caster to roll a high enough concentration check so they lose the spell. The same with forcing them to combat cast. But as they go up in levels and max out concentration and if they take skill focus concentration as well as the combat casting feat it becomes very hard to disrupted the casting.

Shadowrun has my favorite magic system I love the idea of drain. A mage can cast all day and all night long as long as they resist drain. But once they start taking drain and adding the penalties it gets harder and harder to cast.

I do think that one of the misconception though is that fighters at higher levels should be dealing out as much damage as a wizard does with an area spell. At higher levels the fighter's job is to help absorb damage and to be able to go toe to toe with significant threats while the wizards handles the multiple numbers of lessor bad guys.

One of the things people seem to forget is that if a fighter hits you unless you have damage reduction you take all that damage most area spells have reflex for half which can cut down the damage and rogues very rarely take any damage.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
One of the things people seem to forget is that if a fighter hits you unless you have damage reduction you take all that damage most area spells have reflex for half which can cut down the damage.
Saving against at tweaked out high level caster can be pretty tough. If you're lucky, he's just blasting you for damage, not an SoD.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
Saving against at tweaked out high level caster can be pretty tough. If you're lucky, he's just blasting you for damage, not an SoD.

If he is using a SOD yes though I have seen plenty of NPCs make the save. But it is possible my DMs keep up on the goat sacrifices to the gods of dice and they just roll well.

But spells like fireball and meteor storm have a hard time taking down high level characters with their higher saves and hit points.
 

Oni

First Post
Saving against at tweaked out high level caster can be pretty tough. If you're lucky, he's just blasting you for damage, not an SoD.

Of course this is only true if you're talking about 3e, prior to that you couldn't jack save difficulties way the heck up and any kind of SoD was a much greater gamble. 3e broke a lot of stuff, rendering it a terrible example of the classic model of balance between classes, but it sure makes for good talking points if you don't like wizards I guess. 2e and prior, while far from perfect and certainly allowing room for improvement, are a much better starting point for discussion. When it comes to magic, 3e is best as an example of what not to do.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Of course this is only true if you're talking about 3e, prior to that you couldn't jack save difficulties way the heck up and any kind of SoD was a much greater gamble.
Oh yes, absolutely. I remember when the notation "save: neg" meant 'this spell does nothing,' which was a whole 'nuther kind of balance issue. But, then, back in 1e your magic missle and fireball and whatnot didn't top out at 10th level, either.

3e broke a lot of stuff, rendering it a terrible example of the classic model of balance between classes,
To be fair, it was trying to fix stuff, too. The above 'problem' with saves, for instance. Done in a more balanced way, it might have been OK to have spells with progressively higher DCs like that, if the spells had been toned down at all. 4e got that bit right, with spells as 'attacks,' - so all your spells have a chance of working as you level - and saves as more of an independent durration mechanic.
3e did improve balance in the single-digit levels, but, if you're counting on balancing Wish with death by housecat, that was actually a problem.

2e and prior, while far from perfect and certainly allowing room for improvement, are a much better starting point for discussion.
Thus the Wish/house-cat example, taken straight from AD&D.
 

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