D&D 5E Should Weapon/To Hit Proficiency Be Automatic?

[ren1999]

People complain about feat taxes.
If they choose a weapon proficiency feat, then they can't choose another feat or maneuver.

But what if these weapon proficiency feats were automatic?

Let's say that every 5 levels you get an award called

to Hit and Damage +1, regardless of your class.

So under the fighter or martial class advancement table it would look like this.
lvl 5 weapon training +1 to hit and damage
lvl 10 weapon proficiency +1 to hit and damage
lvl 15 weapon specialty +1 to hit and damage
lvl 20 weapon expertise +1 to hit and damage
lvl 25 weapon mastery +1 to hit and damage

Under the Wizard or Caster only class
lvl 5 arcane training +1 to hit and damage
lvl 10 arcane proficiency +1 to hit and damage
lvl 15 arcane specialty +1 to hit and damage
lvl 20 arcane expertise +1 to hit and damage
lvl 25 arcane mastery +1 to hit and damage
This arcane bonus would also apply to weapons but casters would do less weapon damage.

For the Cleric or mixed martial and caster class
lvl 5 religious training +1 to hit and damage
lvl 10 religious proficiency +1 to hit and damage
lvl 15 religious specialty +1 to hit and damage
lvl 20 religious expertise +1 to hit and damage
lvl 25 religious mastery +1 to hit and damage
This religious bonus would not be overpowering as these classes would do less weapon damage than a dedicated martial class and less spell/prayer damage than a dedicated caster class.

 

[Stormonu]

There is nothing wrong with what you have above. The bigger question is - do NPC's/monsters get the same bonus and is there similar growth to AC? If there is, you're just making a treadmill of sorts, unless you expect characters to be regularly fighting opponents 5 or more levels above or below their level. That's where the issue lies. If it's a true bonus, that's good. If you're off-setting the bonus with a penalty, you're spinning your wheels and you'd be better off not doing it in the first place.

Likewise, the level of bonus you give out changes whether giving it for free or making it a built-in function is a good idea. A +1 or +2 bonus on d20 is fine to make an optional choice. Beyond that and the larger the bonus, the more it becomes required and less an option. A +5 bonus on d20 translates to a +25% increase - something that would be almost impossible to ignore at that stage.

 

[Li Shenron]

People complain about feat taxes.
If they choose a weapon proficiency feat, then they can't choose another feat or maneuver.

But what if these weapon proficiency feats were automatic?

The difference is a playstyle one.

Some players enjoy character design choices, so a feat is an asset.

Other players just want to play with the PC, so a feat is a cost.

I am in the first group, so for me when too often I don't have a choice because a lot of stuff is automatic, the game is less rewarding.

Also, when features are automatically granted but not used, people start complaining that they are not useful and want them replaced with something else.

There really is no perfect solution that would make sure nobody will complain.

 

[delericho]

3e had this one about right - classes automatically gave proficiency with weapons associated with the class (Fighters got all Martial, Clerics got all Simple, Wizards got a few weapons), with the option of upgrading to better weapons by using a feat.

One thing that wasn't so good, though - there's very little point in giving access to a few weapons in a category. Because all the Martial weapons are (supposed to be) balanced with one another, once you've got proficiency with one martial and one missile weapon in the category, you might as well have proficiency with all of them - because 90%+ of the time you'll only ever use your one weapon of choice.

 

[Li Shenron]

One thing that wasn't so good, though - there's very little point in giving access to a few weapons in a category. Because all the Martial weapons are (supposed to be) balanced with one another, once you've got proficiency with one martial and one missile weapon in the category, you might as well have proficiency with all of them - because 90%+ of the time you'll only ever use your one weapon of choice.

Good observation, but it's a bit dependent on your campaign's choice on magic items.

If you hand out plenty of magic items in treasure (i.e. quite randomly, at least from the point of view of the PCs) then the choice of weapon may be dynamic for the characters in this campaign.

OTOH, in a campaign where magic items (at least weapons) are rare OR the characters can easily buy/craft exactly what they want (the most common case) then yes, they will be motivated to pick one weapon of choice and stick to it forever.

 

[delericho]

If you hand out plenty of magic items in treasure (i.e. quite randomly, at least from the point of view of the PCs) then the choice of weapon may be dynamic for the characters in this campaign.

OTOH, in a campaign where magic items (at least weapons) are rare OR the characters can easily buy/craft exactly what they want (the most common case) then yes, they will be motivated to pick one weapon of choice and stick to it forever.

This is true. And very unfortunate - I would much, much rather move to a system where magic items can be found or sold, but can neither be crafted nor bought (for a number of reasons). However, given the balance issues built in to 3e, I feel that doing so would be just another handicap for the warriors vs the spellcasters, and so I'm compelled to play in your second ("most common") case.

IME, the only times when a PC has had to make do with anything other than his weapon of choice has been in that very, very small number of cases where the weapon has been sundered or (more likely) where the PC had been captured and hasn't yet gotten it back.

If 5e can fix that issue for us, then I would be very happy indeed. Unfortunately, given what I've seen from 4e, it looks like the trend is for things to go the other way - that PCs are expected to have exactly the items they want.

 

[the Jester]

If 5e can fix that issue for us, then I would be very happy indeed. Unfortunately, given what I've seen from 4e, it looks like the trend is for things to go the other way - that PCs are expected to have exactly the items they want.

Maybe it's just early, but I'm not getting this.

4e is the edition that will probably contribute the least to 5e, and magic items look to be going back, by default, to the 1e style, at least in the current playtest packet.

 

[ren1999]

Monsters would get the same bonuses.
I'm also pushing for them to have the same level system as characters.
And it is true that monsters will need to be a few levels lower so that the characters don't die all the time.
That is the reality of the game now, the designers just hide it.