Shouldn't most Rituals be free?

[Caliban]

and just because someone else in the party has Thievery, doesn't mean that they will be with you (or that they are concious if they are with you) when you need to open that door.

Rituals are a fallback plan, when the standard method isn't going to work for some reason.

 

[drachasor]

I don't think rituals should be free. Just answering the OP, sorry for sidetracking the sidetracked conversation.

Well, first I am not saying ALL rituals should be free, in case you are under that impression. (No offense if you aren't, but I seem to be plagued by people who think that). Beyond that, mind sharing your reasoning on why many of the rituals in the PHB shouldn't be free?

and just because someone else in the party has Thievery, doesn't mean that they will be with you (or that they are concious if they are with you) when you need to open that door.

Rituals are a fallback plan, when the standard method isn't going to work for some reason.

Well, rituals should definitely be a fallback plan in many situations. Sometimes they are the right solution for the job however. Many of the rituals still are perfectly balanced in this regards even when free.

 

[Caliban]

Well, rituals should definitely be a fallback plan in many situations. Sometimes they are the right solution for the job however. Many of the rituals still are perfectly balanced in this regards even when free.

If you are the DM and you want them to be free, then make them free. If you aren't the DM, then you need to explain to the DM why you should get a free ride on the component cost and hope he agrees.

I personally don't see any compelling reason to change it, but I haven't played enough 4e to form a solid opinion. (Most of my 4e play will likely be throught the RPGA organized play events, so my opinion is likely to be irrelevent anyway.)

 

[Renfield]

My opinion is that WotC was running out of time and didn't know what to do with non-combat related magic. Sacrificing an orphanage to the dark lords of the Nine and making certain agreements (why do you think Asmodeus is actually a deity now, huh? He's been after that since 1st ed) they were given the Rituals idea. It was a damn good idea but only an idea, the Lord of the Nine, being the subtly vengeful and deceptive prick that he is, never gave them the mechanic to properly execute the Rituals system and therefor making it the wonderful flavor filled aspect of the D&D game it was meant to be. Instead the fools used their tried (though not necessarily true) method of assigning a gold piece cost to something as a way of 'game balance' and saying it represented components and research time and the like and left them alone to go play with the nifty combat system... er, I mean RPG they had created.

To summarize for those who didn't get it:
Rituals: Great game mechanic in concept, bland and meh-worthy in practice. (I can take it or leave it)

4e has many great ideas, and even some great mechanics, but I wish they spent a little more time polishing the kinks out to make it a more solid RPG. I mean scrying! 31000gp to watch someone for *maybe* 30 seconds and at 24th level no less. It hurts to think that someone looked at that and thought it was a good idea, might as well nix scrying altogether for all the good it is. I like the game, but I don't think it's the Holy Grail that some people consider it and this is one of the reasons why.

 

[drachasor]

My opinion is that WotC was running out of time and didn't know what to do with non-combat related magic. Sacrificing an orphanage to the dark lords of the Nine and making certain agreements (why do you think Asmodeus is actually a deity now, huh? He's been after that since 1st ed) they were given the Rituals idea. It was a damn good idea but only an idea, the Lord of the Nine, being the subtly vengeful and deceptive prick that he is, never gave them the mechanic to properly execute the Rituals system and therefor making it the wonderful flavor filled aspect of the D&D game it was meant to be. Instead the fools used their tried (though not necessarily true) method of assigning a gold piece cost to something as a way of 'game balance' and saying it represented components and research time and the like and left them alone to go play with the nifty combat system... er, I mean RPG they had created.

To summarize for those who didn't get it:
Rituals: Great game mechanic in concept, bland and meh-worthy in practice. (I can take it or leave it)

4e has many great ideas, and even some great mechanics, but I wish they spent a little more time polishing the kinks out to make it a more solid RPG. I mean scrying! 31000gp to watch someone for *maybe* 30 seconds and at 24th level no less. It hurts to think that someone looked at that and thought it was a good idea, might as well nix scrying altogether for all the good it is. I like the game, but I don't think it's the Holy Grail that some people consider it and this is one of the reasons why.

I generally agree with your view on rituals. Some of them do need fixing. Thankfully they do provide a fair amount of framework to improve them.

 

[Renfield]

I generally agree with your view on rituals. Some of them do need fixing. Thankfully they do provide a fair amount of framework to improve them.

True. For this I am thankful. I think a little tweaking and in-game play-testing and I'll have a system that works for my players and myself. Will I get around to it? Possibly. 4e is going to take the stage as my casual game session game, for those days when I'm lazy and don't have a lot of prep time and have yet to go over the present Pathfinder module again, kind of a junk food game and I don't mean that to be insulting. My players and myself love the Pathfinder system and where it's going and will probably focus more on that at least until I move to a new city and get a whole new set of players... which will be interesting....

"Wow, you're letting us pick the better of two sets of 4d6 six times drop the lowest and re-roll ones instead of the 24 point 3.5 point buy system our old mysteriously missing GM forced us to use? Awesome... why are you grinning like that?" players clutches dice bag to his chest protectively.

 

[Ulthwithian]

I'll note that in my group Knock looks like it will be quite useful. The Warlock might have Thievery, might not. Even if he does, the Wizard's (and the Warlord's!) Arcana skill would be much higher than his Thievery skill. As such, the Knock ritual definitely has its benefits.

Further, I think the people discussing Knock might be missing one of the most useful aspects of it; it can 'unlock' items that Thievery simply can't. The example of a gate barred from the other side is explicitly given. Another point is that it's probably most useful on locked items that are portable. I could place a chest somewhere that is extremely difficult to unlock (i.e., the Thievery guy may be completely unable to open it), knowing that the Knock Ritual exists and that the players can resort to it.

Also, the existence of Arcane Lock more or less requires a ritual to help defeat it. The characters I have could lock something with Arcane Lock, and have an average result of 28 at 4th level. At least for my group, the Thievery guy might be able to unlock that with a 20 at 4th level... 20 + 5 + 1 + 2... I guess it all depends on if he has a Dex bonus or not. (As a Star-pact Warlock, that's not all that likely.)

 

[jaldaen]

Not certain anyone has mentioned this yet as I didn't have time ti read through the thread... but what about using healing surges to lower the cost of using a ritual? Not certain how much one would be worth, but this could be a decent "anti-spamming" limiter. Sure you can do these out of combat things, but just remember if you get into combat later it might come back to haunt you.

This might also work for campaigns with lower than normal monetary rewards.

 

[Dausuul]

I mean scrying! 31000gp to watch someone for *maybe* 30 seconds and at 24th level no less. It hurts to think that someone looked at that and thought it was a good idea, might as well nix scrying altogether for all the good it is. I like the game, but I don't think it's the Holy Grail that some people consider it and this is one of the reasons why.

I'm quite happy with this. Scrying was waaaaaay too easy in 3.X. It may not seem like much, but it could wreak havoc with an adventure plot unless every villain had some sort of scrying ward - in which case, why bother having scrying to begin with?

It wasn't on the teleport level of plot wreckage, but it was up there.

 

[TwoSix]

4e has many great ideas, and even some great mechanics, but I wish they spent a little more time polishing the kinks out to make it a more solid RPG. I mean scrying! 31000gp to watch someone for *maybe* 30 seconds and at 24th level no less. It hurts to think that someone looked at that and thought it was a good idea, might as well nix scrying altogether for all the good it is. I like the game, but I don't think it's the Holy Grail that some people consider it and this is one of the reasons why.

I can think of any number of real-world people and organizations who would pay the equivalent of 31,000 gp to find out the whereabouts of someone or something.