Show me that Power Attack is ever Worth it..

[Garthanos]

Im just not seeing it.... statistically under reasonable conditions.

if my chance to hit is 50/50 and I do d10 +4,
average damage = 4.75

if I do a power attack
40/60 and d10 +6

average damage = 4.6

if I do an attack of d4+3... punching with a strength of 15.
50/50 gives me damage of 2.5
and with power attack sure my average damage is a whopping 3.

But unless the damage bonus of 2 is relatively high compared to your damage without the boost ... its always a rather bad idea.

 

[Mengu]

When your hit chance increases, and you are wielding a two handed weapon, power attack may occasionally yield better average damage. Let's do a hypothetical Example:

Human Avenger 1 - Fullblade, Power Attack, 18 Wisdom
Normal attack: +7 vs AC 15, 1d12+4 damage, average: 10.38375
Normal attack: +5 vs AC 15, 1d12+7 damage, average: 11.93625
(don't want to clutter the post with math, if asked, I can provide it.)

So, power attack can yield higher damage. It's dependent on how well you can hit, and what your base damage is. As your damage increases, your chance to hit starts to become more valuable than a +3 damage.

In general I wouldn't recommend power attack, simply because of rider effects on your powers, and I would typically rather hit and do less damage than miss altogether. The risk of missing vs the gain in damage is not a worthwhile risk in my book.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, I totally agree. There are a few corner cases where Power Attack may be a good tactic, but from any sort of optimization standpoint it is a poor choice of a feat. The situations where it tends to outperform a regular attack are also generally ones where it hardly matters. If your chance to hit is already really high, then PA is likely to yield greater damage, but those types of opponents are usually trivial anyway.

I could see taking it for flavor reasons I suppose, but even then there would seem to be equally good ways to convey the "I hit it really hard" concept.

 

[DracoSuave]

If you use Power Attack on every attack you ever make with a one handed weapon, Power Attack is bad.

You have a brain tho, so you know not to do that. You use it with Two-handed weapons, because that's when it actually helps you.

So, let's say you deal 1d12+6 damage per hit, and you have +9 to hit. (Level 2 character with a +1 fullblade, 18 in attack stat, and weapon focus)

Your chance to hit something is (21+9-AC)/20 and your average damage is 12.5 before power attack and (21+7-AC)/20 and 15.5 average damage after.

So, calculate that out to find the sweet spot for that character.

(21+7-AC)*15.5/20 > (21+9-AC)*12.5/20

15.5(28) - 15.5(AC) > 12.5(30) - 12.5(AC)

434 - 15.5(AC) > 375 - 12.5(AC)

59 > 3(AC)

19.6 > AC

So, in situations where AC is less than 20, Power Attack is good. For situations that it is greater than 20, Power Attack is bad.

So examining that further, you're level 2...

White Dragons are good to Power Attack
Every Kobold is good to Power Attack
Most Goblins are good to Power Attack
Rage Drakes are good to Power Attack
Every Zombie in the MM except Brutes and Chillborn are good to go.

It's hardly a trap at all, provided you use it intellegently. Just find your sweet spot number.

For the same character with a mordenkrad:

(21+6-AC)*16/20 > (21+8-AC)*13/20
27(16)-16AC > 29(13)-13AC
(432-377)/3 > AC
AC < 18.3

In this case, there's still not a lot of level 2 monsters that have higher than 18 AC. And there's a few much higher than that that don't.

It's not a bad feat at all if you're willing to do the math work.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

PA is about trading accuracy for damage. So it is horrible for the axe wielding inaccurate barbarians usually directed at it, and instead better for people who are accurate but do little damage. If you hit the monster very easily, PA helps. If you have trouble hitting, PA makes it hurt worse. If you have big damage on a hit, PA hurts more than it helps.

Most of the time, yeah, you don't want to PA. But if you have a lot of accuracy and not a big damage potential (so, Avengers mainly, and maybe rogues?) then PA helps some of the time. But even then you should evaluate the cost and gain (as Draco helpfully explained).

That's looking at primarily damage. Effects complicate the picture: Powers that have a useful effect on a Hit (most of them) make PA a worse choice. Powers that have a useful Effect line benefit more from PA.

 

[Herschel]

In general I wouldn't recommend power attack, simply because of rider effects on your powers, and I would typically rather hit and do less damage than miss altogether. The risk of missing vs the gain in damage is not a worthwhile risk in my book.

This (in most cases). Against squishies it can be okay but to me isn't worth a feat.

 

[Garthanos]

Yeah, I totally agree. There are a few corner cases where Power Attack may be a good tactic, but from any sort of optimization standpoint it is a poor choice of a feat. The situations where it tends to outperform a regular attack are also generally ones where it hardly matters. If your chance to hit is already really high, then PA is likely to yield greater damage, but those types of opponents are usually trivial anyway.

I could see taking it for flavor reasons I suppose, but even then there would seem to be equally good ways to convey the "I hit it really hard" concept.

I am thinking to let people just use it as an everyman option just like they might use a bull rush or a charge, because it isnt worth the feat cost. Then we can keep the flavor, sans tax.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, let's look at it at another tier, at epic.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Keothi, level 30
Goliath, Fighter, Stoneblessed, Eternal Defender
Build: Battlerager Fighter
Fighter Talents: Battlerager Vigor

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 28, Con 24, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 15, Dex 11, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10.


AC: 44 Fort: 44 Reflex: 39 Will: 37
HP: 228 Surges: 16 Surge Value: 57

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +27, Intimidate +21, Athletics +31

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Arcana +15, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +18, Heal +18, History +15, Insight +18, Nature +20, Perception +18, Religion +15, Stealth +17, Streetwise +16, Thievery +17

FEATS
Level 1: Goliath Greatweapon Prowess
Level 2: Toughness
Level 4: Improved Vigor
Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Polearm)
Level 8: Power Attack
Level 10: Improved Initiative
Level 11: Unyielding Stone
Level 12: Mighty Battlerage
Level 14: Polearm Gamble
Level 16: Uncanny Dodge
Level 18: Paragon Defenses (retrained to Robust Defenses at Level 21)
Level 20: Deadly Axe
Level 21: Axe Mastery
Level 22: Martial Mastery
Level 24: Epic Reflexes
Level 26: Opportune Reflexes
Level 28: Epic Resurgence
Level 30: Martial Resolve

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Crushing Surge
Fighter at-will 1: Brash Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Bell Ringer
Fighter daily 1: Brute Strike
Fighter utility 2: Unstoppable
Fighter encounter 3: Advance Lunge
Fighter daily 5: Agonizing Assault
Fighter utility 6: Unbreakable
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It
Fighter daily 9: Bloodspike Sweep
Fighter utility 10: Into the Fray
Fighter encounter 13: Anvil of Doom (replaces Bell Ringer)
Fighter daily 15: Boulder Charge (replaces Brute Strike)
Fighter utility 16: Surprise Step
Fighter encounter 17: Buffeting Torque (replaces Advance Lunge)
Fighter daily 19: Controlling Thrust (replaces Agonizing Assault)
Fighter utility 22: Act of Desperation
Fighter encounter 23: Paralyzing Strike (replaces Come and Get It)
Fighter daily 25: Fighter's Resurgence (replaces Bloodspike Sweep)
Fighter encounter 27: Cruel Reaper (replaces Anvil of Doom)
Fighter daily 29: Storm of Destruction (replaces Boulder Charge)

ITEMS
Vorpal Halberd +6, Dawn Warrior Elderscale Armor +6, Torc of Power Preservation +6
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Here we have a level 30 goliath polearm fighter maximised for reach. Yes, his weapon reach is 4.

Awesome.

Using his Vorpal Large Halbard +6, his Brash Strike does:

+37 attack, 2d12+26 (av. 39) damage before
+35 attack, 2d12+35 (av. 48) damage after.

Going back to the formula:

(21+35-AC)*48 > (21+37-AC)*39

56*48 - 48AC > 58*39 - 39AC

2688 - 2262 > 9AC

426/9 > AC

AC < 47.33

Orcus, an Ancient Red Dragon has an AC of 48. If you have combat advantage or a +1 to hit by any means, power attack is optimal.

The Terrasque has an AC of 43.

This is with Brash Strike, which is a high damage at-will. Lower the damage, and Power Attack becomes more useful.

Power Attack is hardly a trap at all!


Strange, on paper it looks bad, until you start actually comparing to the monsters you'll actually use it on.

 

[Obryn]

I dunno, I think much like Weapon Focus, it's a feat that gets more attractive the higher level you are. -2 attack for +2 or +3 damage might not be awesome. But -2 to attack for +6 or +9 to damage at paragon or epic levels? That sounds way better.

Honestly, it's also a relatively good deal for any class which gets big boosts to accuracy. The best class I can think of right now is the Avenger. That -2 to attack doesn't look so bad when you have two chances to hit...

-O

 

[DracoSuave]

Well it depends on your build, to be honest.

With one-handed weapons it's meh. With the heavier two-handers it's also meh.

It depends on many variables in creation, and it varies from level to level. But, as the above shows, there are some builds, and damaging builds at that, where Power Attack is optimal.

And if there's even -one- build where a feat is optimal, that feat is not a trap.