Show me that Power Attack is ever Worth it..

[DracoSuave]

Indeed. Most of the 'Power Attack is a trap' argument comes from assumptions (the 50/50 rule, for example) that may or may not apply to your character and/or campaign and/or tier. Reaping Strike does make Power Attack more useful.

At the same time, the point behind the consistancy of damage is also a good one.


But here's another way of looking at the Power Attack feat:

For a Strength Paladin, is Holy Strike a trap?

Of course not, it does your base-line damage, plus more. It's bonus damage! That can't be a trap!

But Valiant Strike hits more often, with two enemies, that's +2 to hit!

So, let's say you have a Wisdom of 16, that means you can either have +2 to hit, or +3 damage. Most people would say 'Well, one is good for one situation, the other is good for another, but they are both good options.'

I would agree. The thing is...

...

Power Attack is exactly the same argument, just with a lower attack bonus to start with. If Holy Strike is not a trap, there exists situations where Power Attack is not a trap.

In my analysis: Power Attack may be right for your build, but after other less situational damage boosters are applied. During paragon, the feat becomes golden, there's TONS of upside to -2/+6, but once you hit epic and the double damage dice kick in, it's back to questioning the build again.

But do the math, figure out the PA Sweet Spot, and you'll not only know if it's good for that level range, by comparing to monsters' ACs that you tend to fight (it's less useful in a campaign where the DM throws higher level monsters at you, more useful in a campaign that the DM throws smaller level monsters at you in larger numbers). As well, the Sweet Spot is a tool you use to determine the 'right time' to use it, so using it will maximise the effectiveness of PA.

 

[DracoSuave]

I think it does annoy me that this is exactly the feat not to take for the the one battleaxe wielder....(perhaps enbalanced blades needed a special boost).

Actually, if you change the oversized halbard to a normal sized great axe (taking a different epic destiny, perhaps, not going for a reach 4 build), you'll find the Goliath Halbard analysis is mathematicly the same. Everything still does the same damage more or less in that situation.

Execution Axe average damage...

2d12 becomes 4+2d10 and GGW becomes WFocus--

13+4 vs 4+11+3, or one extra damage point...

...you'll find the AC sweet spot won't change much. Power Attack is still decent for an epic axe-wielding maniac.

 

[Garthanos]

Perhaps it should be called "Vulnerable Point Attack" or something better ;-)
Then it would seem appropriate for those wanting the precision "I never miss types" and still have the same mechanics... skinning it makes me happier anyway.

 

[Garthanos]

...you'll find the AC sweet spot won't change much. Power Attack is still decent for an epic axe-wielding maniac.

Cool... but I think epic tier is a long ways off right now and from past experience I think my players feel a little disconnected once the characters start approaching godly (or the adventures feel too over the top lets save the world again).

I think using Avengers to claim the feat is worth being a feat would mean it wasn't worth it till ..phb 2 came out.

If both ranger twin strike and reaping strike makes it worth it still within the heroic tier that is convincing.(but rangers twf is such a tempting target for some to nerf that something being worthwhile combined with it .. is not as nice an argument as reaping strike).

Note the AC sweet spot only makes it break even... you need to go over the sweet spot by enough to be as useful as more reliable damage boosters.

Also note my players tend to not memorize the monster manual (at least not on purpose)... so knowing exactly what AC to use it against well...

 

[babinro]

As mentioned in other posts...Power attack really makes a difference in higher tiers where the damage is greater, particularly with a two handed weapon.

You can also use it conditionally when flanking to offset the penalty. You can also use it for attacks that don't target AC, as those defenses are typically much easier to connect with.

Depending on your class, there are powers that provide bonuses to your attack rolls, these powers also offset the power attack detriments.

The Avengers ability to roll two attacks rolls on an attack also make this feat desirable for them.

 

[DracoSuave]

Cool... but I think epic tier is a long ways off right now and from past experience I think my players feel a little disconnected once the characters start approaching godly (or the adventures feel too over the top lets save the world again).

I think using Avengers to claim the feat is worth being a feat would mean it wasn't worth it till ..phb 2 came out.

If both ranger twin strike and reaping strike makes it worth it still within the heroic tier that is convincing.(but rangers twf is such a tempting target for some to nerf that something being worthwhile combined with it .. is not as nice an argument as reaping strike).

Actually, I recommend Reaping Strike and Brash Strike.

The Reapin Strike ends up dealing damage on a miss which is decent...

But Brash Strike changes to take combat advantage to add Con mod + 3/6/9 to damage, with the hit penalty washing with Brash's hit bonus.

That is a LOT of damage there.

Note the AC sweet spot only makes it break even... you need to go over the sweet spot by enough to be as useful as more reliable damage boosters.

On this I agree, it's not the first thing you should take. But if you're an axe-wielding Battlerager and you've got the damage already, this is a nice boost for sure.

Also note my players tend to not memorize the monster manual (at least not on purpose)... so knowing exactly what AC to use it against well...

True, but they can feel that out pretty swiftly in a battle. You generally can get a good idea of what AC a monster has after you've hit and missed them a couple times around the table.

 

[Garthanos]

Depending on your class, there are powers that provide bonuses to your attack rolls, these powers also offset the power attack detriments.
.

Sure Strike? ;-) dont plug the numbers you wont like what you see.. not actually the problem of PA obviously.

And yes I am convinced an Avenger with combat advantage should always power attack ;-). Should she have picked it in place of weapon focus perhaps not but maybe right afterwards. (insert argument about how avenger cant justify original design decision by the game devs. ... and only changes it from "power attack is a trap" to "power attack was a trap")

It is actually the ranger twf and reaping fighter builds that convince me though that it indeed wasnt a trap.

 

[Garthanos]

Actually, I recommend Reaping Strike and Brash Strike.

The Reapin Strike ends up dealing damage on a miss which is decent...

But Brash Strike changes to take combat advantage to add Con mod + 3/6/9 to damage, with the hit penalty washing with Brash's hit bonus.

That is a LOT of damage there.

A fun way to do Brash Strike is with Vigilant Justice.... So they try to get away and you are instant striker ;-). Wish I had more feats.

I like the style of the various combat style feats... but then there are those reliable expertise feats staring one in the face... sigh.

 

[Destil]

When you have leaders/controllers throwing out attack/defense buffs/debuffs power attack becomes good quite quickly. If your best buddy in melee is a Strength cleric with brand, this is a fantastic feat. Looks like it'll combo well with all the psion's defense debuffs, too...

 

[Victim]

I've gotten a lot of use out of it with my barbarian. At paragon levels with a 2 handed weapon, power attack is worth 6 damage. With my powers' damage, power attack starts can start being useful when I'd normally hit at 10. Of course, my character is a Thaneborn build. Two of her encounter powers come with an additional +5 attack. One attacks Fort with a weapon attack. Another slaps a -5 AC penalty on the target. Her build power imposes a -2 defense penalty to enemies in the area. When she's bloodied, or when she bloodies an enemy, she gets +5 attack. And most of these bonuses stack. So it's very easy to find extra attack bonus with this character that Power Attack converts into better damage.

And those are just the effective bonuses from my own character. With the right group, it's pretty easy to get attack bonuses very high, at least for a round or two.