Show me that Power Attack is ever Worth it..

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

There are other cases where Power Attack may be worthwhile. If you are playing a character with a lot of encounter and/or daily powers that do half damage on a miss, you may want to PA any time you're NOT likely to hit. If for some reason you're in a situation where your attacks are unlikely to connect and you're burning half-damage-on-a-miss powers, especially at higher levels and with a 2-h weapon, there may be little reason not to PA for the extra (halved) damage.

Similarly, if you are low on daily or encounter powers which are reliable, it may be worth it to PA even if that reduces your average damage per swing, since you're only going to get to use the power once, but a miss isn't a use. This lets you get the most out of your power, even if it takes multiple swings to connect.

 

[Garthanos]

It certainly scales up in to being useful...at what point does the scaling really make it worth a feat.. at level 8 what value did it do for the example character you provided.

Compare it to another feat... like Dragonborn Frenzy or was that fury.. damn it no book handy... the one which gave the character a +2 to damage when bloodied. I guess that depends on how much of a fight you are bloodied... argh situational.

Or how about the multiclass berzerker one which gives you +2 to damage on all attacks for 1 encounter per day... assume 2 encounters per day ...

At low levels other feats seem way more useful even to the same builds that power attack will later be useful.

 

[Garthanos]

I am thinking Power Attack could still be an everyman action sans scaling ... and scale it with an Improved power attack, very much luck bull rush and charge.

 

[DracoSuave]

It certainly scales up in to being useful...at what point does the scaling really make it worth a feat.. at level 8 what value did it do for the example character you provided.

A very good question; But that's where retraining comes in.

Compare it to another feat... like Dragonborn Frenzy or was that fury.. damn it no book handy... the one which gave the character a +2 to damage when bloodied. I guess that depends on how much of a fight you are bloodied... argh situational.

Oh, absolutely. But then, Power Attack is also untyped, so it stacks with other bonuses.

Or how about the multiclass berzerker one which gives you +2 to damage on all attacks for 1 encounter per day... assume 2 encounters per day ...

Again, it all stacks. So it's not an -either/or- situation. And +2 damage isn't -that- great at epic, compared to Power Attack.

It all depends on the build. In the above build, the fighter's going Goliath Great Weapon, has a large weapon from his epic destiny, and is using an attack with a large bonus to damage. But on the other hand, he's not using a superior non-reach weapn.

 

[Garthanos]

Again, it all stacks. So it's not an -either/or- situation.

Well if you have one feat to spend it is an either or.... which is a normal cost analysis situation.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well if you have one feat to spend it is an either or.... which is a normal cost analysis situation.

In that situation, I agree. However, if you have -many- feats to spend, then it's not so problematic. In that effect, the correct answer should be:

Situational feats involve a situation and a reward. What is the situation, and what is the reward? Which is more fun for you, so which will come up more likely?

In this case, Power Attack might be the more fun feat for some. They might enjoy a controlling build, but occasionally put out large numbers of damage so that they can feel helpful in that field. Power Attack is great for these highly accurate, mid-damage builds. The situation is easy to attain and doesn't require risk (does enemy have less than X AC) and the reward is a non-trivial amount of damage. 3 damage is not minor at level 1, and 9 is not minor at level 30.

Power Attack and a ranger's Twin attack? Seriously. Low damage per attack, high accuracy, and a damage bonus that doubles per round... TWF should SERIOUSLY consider Power Attack! The calculations are a lot more complex however....

But it, like other situational feats, can't be discussed in a vacuum without a specific build in mind. Do you take Power Attack before Weapon Focus/DWT/GGW? No, of course not. But afterwords? Certainly worth consideration.

 

[DracoSuave]

So, for a level 1 human ranger with two weapon fighting, wielding two long swords and with weapon focus using Twin Strike, the sweet spot is an AC of 15.

For the same ranger with weapon expertise instead, the sweet spot is an AC of 16.

For the same ranger with lethal hunter instead: 15 again.

This proves that Power Attack shouldn't be your level 1 feat. But gain a level, have Weapon Exp. and Weapon Focus, and a +1 weapon, and the sweet spot is 16.

Granted, I will point out that to maximise your damage, you want Weapon Focus, and Weapon Expertise, and Lethal Hunter first -anyways-. But there is a point where Power Attack is a viable and useful option.

 

[Elric]

Well it depends on your build, to be honest.

With one-handed weapons it's meh. With the heavier two-handers it's also meh.

It depends on many variables in creation, and it varies from level to level. But, as the above shows, there are some builds, and damaging builds at that, where Power Attack is optimal.

And if there's even -one- build where a feat is optimal, that feat is not a trap.

As mentioned already, that Power Attack increases average damage per round is a necessary condition for it to be worth using, not a sufficient condition for it to be "optimal." Then you have to pay the cost to acquire the feat, so to be "optimal" Power Attack has to be more valuable than the next best feat you could acquire. There are times when you'll have much higher than usual chances to hit, and if you get that consistently (Righteous Brand Cleric, for example), you should rate Power Attack more highly accordingly.

Rider effects from hitting aside, it's still not the case that average damage dealt is all that counts. Having that damage come from a higher chance to hit/more damage on a miss means that the variance of your damage is lower, which means that you'll tend to kill monsters more quickly in terms of average rounds if you deal the same average damage per round.

Furthermore, since the PCs are at an advantage in almost every fight, variance in general goes against them, and PCs should care not just about minimizing average rounds to kill enemies but also minimizing the variance of that number, which is again accomplished by having more consistent damage. I say "variance" here though in theory one should care about the entire distribution of results, but variance is relatively easy to calculate and the variance plus mean should give a good summary of the distribution. See more discussion of these issues in a different context here.

Lastly, no one has yet mentioned that characters who deal damage on a miss benefit more from Power Attack. So Reaping Strike, Scimitar Dance, and Hammer Rhythm character will be more likely to want Power Attack.

 

[Garthanos]

Highly accurate mid damage builds make me think of ninja wielding the inferior weapons and using full body lunges to make up for it.( a pseudo real world phenomena corresponding to the game)

I think it does annoy me that this is exactly the feat not to take for the the one battleaxe wielder....(perhaps enbalanced blades needed a special boost).

 

[Garthanos]

Lastly, no one has yet mentioned that characters who deal damage on a miss benefit more from Power Attack. So Reaping Strike, Scimitar Dance, and Hammer Rhythm character will be more likely to want Power Attack.

Ah good one... I like Reaping strike and that does up the anti.