Silly Question: Cleric Domain Abilities

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

"Wizards can no longer cast spells from the prohibited school."

That does not, however, prevent them from copying them into a spell book. For that, you'd need to go elsewhere (specifically, here: "She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools," from the Magic Overview).

And, additionally, what controls which spells you may prepare and cast? Your class spell list.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And, additionally, what controls which spells you may prepare and cast? Your class spell list.

Or your alignment, or your deity's alignment, if you're a cleric.

I don't see anything that suggests Deathwatch is not on the class list of a Good cleric; he just can't cast it.

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The other issue, then, is this:

Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands.

If that doesn't mean "Is no longer on your class spell list," then it means that a specialist wizard who's given up Evocation can't cast magic missile, can't learn magic missile (either from a scroll, spellbook, or independent research), can't use a scroll of magic missile, can't use a wand of magic missile ...

... but could use a staff of magic missile.

Hyp - there's nothing preventing the cleric in your example from using a scroll of Deathwatch or a wand of the same, however. He can also prepare Deathwatch, too. He just can't cast it - which makes this an entirely different kettle of fish.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hyp - there's nothing preventing the cleric in your example from using a scroll of Deathwatch or a wand of the same, however. He can also prepare Deathwatch, too. He just can't cast it - which makes this an entirely different kettle of fish.

So can a good Cleric/Abjurer cast Protection from Good as a wizard spell?

Are spells from his prohibited school available to him as a cleric?

Can the answers to those two questions be different while retaining consistency in one's argument?

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

My answers to those two questions are the same, so I'm not sure where you're going.

For reference, my answer is "Yes," to the first two, with the following assumption:

1. Any rule within a class description pertains only to that particular class's abilities.

I was also going to add:

2. A specialist wizard's prohibited schools are treated as no longer being on his wizard class spell list

but I don't need it to answer the questions.

Care to enlighten me?

 

[Hypersmurf]

For reference, my answer is "Yes," to the first two, with the following assumption:

1. Any rule within a class description pertains only to that particular class's abilities.

So you don't consider that the description of Clerical Domains, which only apply to clerics (in the core rules, at least), count as being a rule within a class description?

Surely it's a similar situation to an embassy? It might not lie within the borders of its nation, but it is considered to be soil of that nation.

Domains don't appear in the Class Chapter between Bard and Druid, but they're part of the class description of clerics, surely?

-Hyp.

 

[Camarath]

Can the answers to those two questions be different while retaining consistency in one's argument?

I think the answers would have to be the same. Both of those issues depend on if you feel that the general unwritten premission of one casting ability overrules the written limitation of another casting ability if a character has both abilities. I think the intent is probably that the limitations of one casting ability does not apply to another casting ability.

As to what the answer is according RAW I think that depends on how or if one applies the Primary Sources rule (DMG Errata) to this situation. One could either rule that since there is no expressed permission to cast spells of an opposed alignment or from a prohibited school then there is no conflict and no need to apply the Primary Sources rule. Or one could rule that since it a character is normally allowed to cast spells from all schools as a cleric and of all alignments as a wizard the limitations conflict with the rules for normal casting. If there is a conflict then the rules for each casting ability would be the primary source for that ability. Thus the rules for wizard ability overrule the cleric alignment limitation with regard to the wizard casting ability and the rules for cleric overrule the wizard school limitation with regard to the cleric casting ability.

I do not think a definitive position can be take with regard to RAW. I would go with casting limitations not appling to the casting abilities of other classes but I can certainly see ruling that they would.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So you don't consider that the description of Clerical Domains, which only apply to clerics (in the core rules, at least), count as being a rule within a class description?

No, because it's in the Magic chapter.

Surely it's a similar situation to an embassy? It might not lie within the borders of its nation, but it is considered to be soil of that nation.

Domains don't appear in the Class Chapter between Bard and Druid, but they're part of the class description of clerics, surely?

Well, there's another way of looking at it ...

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells: A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity ...

Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected.

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). ...

Is the Feats chapter, then, the "embassy" of the Fighter class?

EDIT:

To further explain, there's some descriptive text about domains in the cleric section. Then it tells you a little about them, and then some of the limitations on the ones you can take, and some limitations thereof (can only prepare domain spells in domain slots, etc.).

In the fighter section, there's some information on feats, some limitations on the ones you can take, and some of the limitations of those feats (must qualify normally, etc.).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is the Feats chapter, then, the "embassy" of the Fighter class?

The Feats chapter is relevant to all characters. The Domains section is only relevant to Clerics.

You suggest that text within a class description applies only to that class. With what basis? That the description relates to that class and none other?

Isn't this the case with the Domains section? The section relates to clerics, not to anyone else... should the same scope limitation of the Cleric class description apply?

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The Feats chapter is relevant to all characters. The Domains section is only relevant to Clerics.

Allow me to put it into more parallel form:

The Feats chapter is relevant to all characters.

The Magic chapter is relevant to all spellcasters.

A particular feat only pertains to a character who has taken that feat.

A particular domain only pertains to ... ?