Thia Halmades
First Post
*flips a coin, lets it hang* Wait for it. Nope, still spinning.
Full text follows.
This is now really two questions; Thanee references a separate thread, the Feat "extra spell" where the question boiled down to "Can I, as a Specialist Wizard, take the Feat Extra Spell to add a spell from my prohibited spells to my current list?" The Feat states that the spell must be on the class list; as (I think it was Patryn) pointed out, the text in fact does not directly state "...and these spells are removed from the Wizards Class List." Which leaves an uncomfortable amount of wiggle room.
Edit: I've been informed that the FAQ evidently states directly that the spells from a prohibited school are treated as being removed from the class list, which is important, because if anything it makes it more clear that someone taking a level in Sorceror would swiftly and immediately regain that access. I think that detracts from the flavor and purpose of specializing, so I stand by my original ruling, barring discussion. (TH, 10/12)
So, going with the "Flavor Text Wins" argument, my ruling would be a bit more lenient. If you've found a deity who your character can get behind, and that Deity grants you a Clerical boon from one the domains, why should it only apply to Cleric spells? The argument of course being, the Deity (being, you know, a God) has granted you the ability to do whatever you do that promotes its cause (say, Chaos) better than others via a Granted Power. Ergo, any spell which is Chaotically aligned/bears the Chaotic descriptor (again, "chaos spell" is a really, really poor choice of words, good call there) would thus be supported by the deity. Using this same 'outside the box' logic, we're assuming that the Granted Power is used to promote the Deities' agenda despite Divine/Arcane barriers.
Li Shenron pointed out in the same Extra Spell thread that the spell itself doesn't matter; Divine & Arcane are technically RP differences, as the "spell" itself is sort of neutral; if it's cast by a Cleric, it's Divine. If a Wizard, Arcane. One Charm spell, but everyone gets it. If the Deity supports Ench/Charm magics, and the only version you have is in your spellbook, would you get the bonus?
Yep. Because I have that sort of thinking; if we're talking about Granted Powers, then we're talking less about a specific mechanic, but more about a tool granted by a God to a Follower to forward that God's agenda. So I say "Yea," it stacks.
Subpoint: If there's been a gross misunderstanding between a Higher Power and the good-aligned party, Why wouldn't a Good Cleric cast Prot. from Good? Odds of them having it memmed? Admittedly small. But assuming that protecting yourself from Good is automatically evil really nerfs some cool RP options. Should I let the misguided Good creature shred me, because hitting it back is "evil?" Point being, it ain't always that black & white.
Second Question: The Wizard is prohibited from casting... er... Evocation spells. Sure, Evo. No more. The Wizard then takes a level in Sorceror, and promptly takes Magic Missile. The Sorceror component can cast the spell, use the item, and read the scroll. And, by extension, any other evocation spells it comes across. Would it only use the "Sorceror levels" in Spellcraft? How would you split them? It wouldn't be fair (in the most technical sense) to limit the caster, any more than it's "fair" in a fair-play sense of the word to blow a level and have all of those abilities back.
This is the game breaking munchkin interpretation, but part of this discussion is about the separation of class abilities. If we prohibit the Sorceror from using Evocation spells and abilities, then we're conceding that the two are not separate; that they're indelibly tied because they reside in one character, and that the character, not the class, is barred from those abilities.
Me? My argument would be that barring a Feat (such as Extra Spell) the restrictions of the Specialist still apply; that the only separate element would be the Sorceror's ability to cast the spell; THAT would be legal and unstoppable (the magic comes from elsewhere, not study, but an internal reservoir). However (heh heh) the flip side of this is a simple question:
In roleplaying terms, we assume that the Wizard has "never learned" how to command the forces of X & Y while specializing in Z. If that character were to take a whole separate class, which studies those forces (a Cleric who gets it as a Domain spell, for example) would it really be fair to keep that class from learning those abilities? We allow Feats for Paladins to step outside of their class and not falter from the path, but a level is actually less valuable (in general) than a feat.
Things to think about.
LCpt. Thia Halmades
Full text follows.
This is now really two questions; Thanee references a separate thread, the Feat "extra spell" where the question boiled down to "Can I, as a Specialist Wizard, take the Feat Extra Spell to add a spell from my prohibited spells to my current list?" The Feat states that the spell must be on the class list; as (I think it was Patryn) pointed out, the text in fact does not directly state "...and these spells are removed from the Wizards Class List." Which leaves an uncomfortable amount of wiggle room.
Edit: I've been informed that the FAQ evidently states directly that the spells from a prohibited school are treated as being removed from the class list, which is important, because if anything it makes it more clear that someone taking a level in Sorceror would swiftly and immediately regain that access. I think that detracts from the flavor and purpose of specializing, so I stand by my original ruling, barring discussion. (TH, 10/12)
So, going with the "Flavor Text Wins" argument, my ruling would be a bit more lenient. If you've found a deity who your character can get behind, and that Deity grants you a Clerical boon from one the domains, why should it only apply to Cleric spells? The argument of course being, the Deity (being, you know, a God) has granted you the ability to do whatever you do that promotes its cause (say, Chaos) better than others via a Granted Power. Ergo, any spell which is Chaotically aligned/bears the Chaotic descriptor (again, "chaos spell" is a really, really poor choice of words, good call there) would thus be supported by the deity. Using this same 'outside the box' logic, we're assuming that the Granted Power is used to promote the Deities' agenda despite Divine/Arcane barriers.
Li Shenron pointed out in the same Extra Spell thread that the spell itself doesn't matter; Divine & Arcane are technically RP differences, as the "spell" itself is sort of neutral; if it's cast by a Cleric, it's Divine. If a Wizard, Arcane. One Charm spell, but everyone gets it. If the Deity supports Ench/Charm magics, and the only version you have is in your spellbook, would you get the bonus?
Yep. Because I have that sort of thinking; if we're talking about Granted Powers, then we're talking less about a specific mechanic, but more about a tool granted by a God to a Follower to forward that God's agenda. So I say "Yea," it stacks.
Subpoint: If there's been a gross misunderstanding between a Higher Power and the good-aligned party, Why wouldn't a Good Cleric cast Prot. from Good? Odds of them having it memmed? Admittedly small. But assuming that protecting yourself from Good is automatically evil really nerfs some cool RP options. Should I let the misguided Good creature shred me, because hitting it back is "evil?" Point being, it ain't always that black & white.
Second Question: The Wizard is prohibited from casting... er... Evocation spells. Sure, Evo. No more. The Wizard then takes a level in Sorceror, and promptly takes Magic Missile. The Sorceror component can cast the spell, use the item, and read the scroll. And, by extension, any other evocation spells it comes across. Would it only use the "Sorceror levels" in Spellcraft? How would you split them? It wouldn't be fair (in the most technical sense) to limit the caster, any more than it's "fair" in a fair-play sense of the word to blow a level and have all of those abilities back.
This is the game breaking munchkin interpretation, but part of this discussion is about the separation of class abilities. If we prohibit the Sorceror from using Evocation spells and abilities, then we're conceding that the two are not separate; that they're indelibly tied because they reside in one character, and that the character, not the class, is barred from those abilities.
Me? My argument would be that barring a Feat (such as Extra Spell) the restrictions of the Specialist still apply; that the only separate element would be the Sorceror's ability to cast the spell; THAT would be legal and unstoppable (the magic comes from elsewhere, not study, but an internal reservoir). However (heh heh) the flip side of this is a simple question:
In roleplaying terms, we assume that the Wizard has "never learned" how to command the forces of X & Y while specializing in Z. If that character were to take a whole separate class, which studies those forces (a Cleric who gets it as a Domain spell, for example) would it really be fair to keep that class from learning those abilities? We allow Feats for Paladins to step outside of their class and not falter from the path, but a level is actually less valuable (in general) than a feat.
Things to think about.
LCpt. Thia Halmades
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, but certainly not often).
