I have played one to 10th level without a shield but you burn through slots at an enormous rate and I still got hit often enough and not just critical.
D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?
- Thread starter darjr
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Laurefindel
Legend
He has come up to play with me at any case. Add a few temp hp every time Shield is cast (abjuration school ward) and a familiar for the free Help action on top and you get a pretty good tank. Broken? I don't think so, but it was challenging at times.
Now that is true - there are many ways to threaten a PC that doesn't target AC, but a vast majority of things not targeting AC are magic spells. It's difficult to have "mundane" encounters that are not dependent on AC. Many creatures have a trip attack or poison or something, but most require them to score a hit first. But that's an issue I have with 5e that has little to do with the shield spell.
Interesting, most of the time, the complaint with 5e is that a character trying for a high AC still gets hit WAY too much.
For ex. I have an 8th level paladin PC with a 21-25 AC (depending on buffs) even at 25, he gets hit all the time. I don't remember any recent fights where he wasn't hit repeatedly.
Now this isn't really a complaint, I'm the party tank and any hit I take is one that the wizard, cleric etc. doesn't - so I make it a point to put myself in harms way. But I consider the AC decent - and I still get hit A LOT.
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Weiley31
Legend
Turnabout is fair play!
So take +2 plate and a +3 shield (very rare items). You are now at 25 AC before buffs.
Add in a +2 buff of some kind (Shield of faith? Haste?) and defensive fighting style, and you have 28 AC.
Add in shield, and you hit 33 AC.
Creatures that hit 21-25 AC A LOT ... won't ever hit this.
Even if you roll it back to ; +1 plate and a +1 shield; 22 AC base. +2 AC self buff and defensive; 25 AC. Then 30 AC with shield. 1 rare item and 1 uncommon item, neither attunement, which isn't atypical for a level 8 PC (although both are defensive).
At the extreme, toss a cloak of displacement on top of this.
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
Okay okay, I'll drop the snark.
Honestly, I think the spell is fine. I can see it being really helpful for giving Advantage to fallen allies who are making Death Saves, and for negating a critical hit 95% of the time. Using this spell to give Advantage on other stuff would be a waste, though, since there are far easier ways to accomplish that (I mean, the Help action is a thing.)
My biggest complaint is that forcing a reroll AND giving advantage just feels weird, since these two effects aren't usually part of the same spell. That's like having Magic Missile also increase someone else's movement rate, or Healing Word ALSO give the caster advantage on save throws. In my opinion it should do one or the other, not both.
And I write this every time the subject comes up: Advantage is overused in 5E. It should be a rare gift, not a foregone conclusion, so I'll always push back on anything that adds yet another way to get Advantage.
On the other hand:
So how would I fix it? I would leave it alone, and not call attention to it. Since it doesn't inflict or heal damage, my players will likely ignore it. On the off-chance that one of the players notices it, buried within the pages of a sourcebook on my bookshelf that I never bring to the table, I would run it as-written and let the player discover for themselves how weird and lackluster it is compared to other 1st-level spell options. Every time they cast this spell, they won't be casting Magic Missile, Healing Word, Shield...
Honestly, I think the spell is fine. I can see it being really helpful for giving Advantage to fallen allies who are making Death Saves, and for negating a critical hit 95% of the time. Using this spell to give Advantage on other stuff would be a waste, though, since there are far easier ways to accomplish that (I mean, the Help action is a thing.)
My biggest complaint is that forcing a reroll AND giving advantage just feels weird, since these two effects aren't usually part of the same spell. That's like having Magic Missile also increase someone else's movement rate, or Healing Word ALSO give the caster advantage on save throws. In my opinion it should do one or the other, not both.
And I write this every time the subject comes up: Advantage is overused in 5E. It should be a rare gift, not a foregone conclusion, so I'll always push back on anything that adds yet another way to get Advantage.
On the other hand:
- It doesn't scale up when using a higher-level spell slot.
- It spends the caster's Reaction, so Counterspell, Hellish Rebuke, readied actions, etc., will be off the table until their next turn.
- A Stealth check vs. the caster's Passive Perception will defeat it.
- Invisible/Ethereal opponents will defeat it.
- Blindness, Darkness, Obscuring Mist, etc. all defeat it.
- It can be Counterspelled/Dispelled but honestly, why would anybody bother?
So how would I fix it? I would leave it alone, and not call attention to it. Since it doesn't inflict or heal damage, my players will likely ignore it. On the off-chance that one of the players notices it, buried within the pages of a sourcebook on my bookshelf that I never bring to the table, I would run it as-written and let the player discover for themselves how weird and lackluster it is compared to other 1st-level spell options. Every time they cast this spell, they won't be casting Magic Missile, Healing Word, Shield...
+2 of the AC is already from haste (another PC typically provides) and +2 more if I choose to use shield of faith (but that's concentration so there's some competition there).
I have +1 full plate - and I consider that A LOT at 8th.
If you have +2 plate AND +3 shield at 8th level - well the DM is being WAY too generous with items! and if you ALSO have a cloak of displacement on top of all that? sorry but, to use an old term, that's Monty Hall territory. If the DM isn't compensating for the huge amount of magic with a significantly increased difficulty - that's a campaign problem not a 5e problem.
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jgsugden
Legend
Let's walk this through.
Compare that to shield, which works against attacks only, but you generally know whether it will save you with a pretty high degree of certainty, and has lasting effects against subsequent attacks. At higher levels, it is not uncommon for shield to stop a few attacks from being hits - and we generally do not see it cast for no benefit at all, although sometimes it is when you're not sure how strong an an attack roll or attack bonus was.
From there, we get to give one other creature advantage on their next d20. This is great if you know they'll need to make a saving throw, or if they have a big alpha strike to make - but if the DM unexpectedly calls for them to make a roll for a small issue, that benefit may not be terribly great.
Essentially - there will be a decent number of times this spell is cast and no benefit will be derived. The enemy attack will not be negated - and the ally roll will not succeed. That is going to happen more often than when you cast shield and no attacks are negated.
This is a fine spell. It is comparable to shield - but people are overreacting to it based upon initial impulse and not after thorough playtesting. DMs - give it to some bad guys and see what happens.
- A creature succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw.
- The creature then rerolls the roll and use the lower roll.
- You then choose a creature within range.
- The chosen creature has advantage on the next attack roll, ability check, or saving throw it makes within 1 minute.
Compare that to shield, which works against attacks only, but you generally know whether it will save you with a pretty high degree of certainty, and has lasting effects against subsequent attacks. At higher levels, it is not uncommon for shield to stop a few attacks from being hits - and we generally do not see it cast for no benefit at all, although sometimes it is when you're not sure how strong an an attack roll or attack bonus was.
From there, we get to give one other creature advantage on their next d20. This is great if you know they'll need to make a saving throw, or if they have a big alpha strike to make - but if the DM unexpectedly calls for them to make a roll for a small issue, that benefit may not be terribly great.
Essentially - there will be a decent number of times this spell is cast and no benefit will be derived. The enemy attack will not be negated - and the ally roll will not succeed. That is going to happen more often than when you cast shield and no attacks are negated.
This is a fine spell. It is comparable to shield - but people are overreacting to it based upon initial impulse and not after thorough playtesting. DMs - give it to some bad guys and see what happens.
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So, I covered everything from +2 plate/+3 shield and cloak of displacement, down to a +1 plate and +1 shield.
In every case we end up with AC that is 30+.
+1 plate is a rare item, so is a +2 shield. A +1 shield is merely uncommon. So +1 plate and a +1 shield is 1 rare item and 1 uncommon item. That isn't unexpected by level 8 or so.
With both, you have 22 AC. Toss on defensive fighting style (23) and a +2 AC buff (like shield of faith) and you have 25 AC. Add in shield, and you can hit 30 AC. Against CR 10 or so foe (stone golem, young red dragon, deva), that is only getting hit on a crit. And most attacks don't even need the shield spell.
If you are playing, say, a Paladin 2/Bladesinger 6 you have plenty of slots to spend on shield.
Are you expecting to have any kind of magic weapon? That's starting to add up. And In the campaign there have been no magic shields yet. If there were, I'd let the cleric have it.
But I took dueling over defense fighting style - with sword and board I already sacrificed on damage and I wanted to pump that a bit - a very common choice. And, other than the magic initiate feat, how am I getting shield? Even being a variant human, I didn't have room for that (took resilient con and ASIs) I suppose I could go the sorcadin or pal-lock route, but I wanted straight Paladin - and multiclassing has tradeoffs too.
And you can't wear plate (or any armor other than light) or use a shield - but sure. Plus this build is even more MAD than paladin already is (I suppose you can ignore CHA and maybe even STR, other than both having to be 13, but you still need DEX, INT and CON for the build to have some oomph)!
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