D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?

[Laurefindel]

I've been looking Strixhaven - interesting book with an interesting premise!

After looking it over - quite surprised that THIS spell is drawing so much attention. You can only get it if you belong to ONE of the colleges and it's not even the biggest thing I saw after 5 minutes of looking the book over:

A MUCH bigger deal, if you take the Witherbloom background - you get to add a bunch of cleric spells to your spell list (cure wounds, lesser restoration, revivify, greater restoration among several others). This obliterates the arcane/divine divide usually present. This would change the nature of most campaigns A LOT - and it means wizards are now even more versatile than ever (bards and sorcerers again get the short end of the stick because while these spells are on your class list, you still have to make room if you want them on your pretty small list of personally available spells)!

but... complaining about something I don't really know about is my specialty...

 

[Bolares]

I've been looking Strixhaven - interesting book with an interesting premise!

After looking it over - quite surprised that THIS spell is drawing so much attention. You can only get it if you belong to ONE of the colleges and it's not even the biggest thing I saw after 5 minutes of looking the book over:

A MUCH bigger deal, if you take the Witherbloom background - you get to add a bunch of cleric spells to your spell list (cure wounds, lesser restoration, revivify, greater restoration among several others). This obliterates the arcane/divine divide usually present. This would change the nature of most campaigns A LOT - and it means wizards are now even more versatile than ever (bards and sorcerers again get the short end of the stick because while these spells are on your class list, you still have to make room if you want them on your pretty small list of personally available spells)!

Thinking DM did a clickbait. And it hooked a lot of people (I’m looking at you @darjr )

 

[darjr]

Thinking DM did a clickbait. And it hooked a lot of people (I’m looking at you @darjr )

I’m no

 

[Mort]

I’m no

If you're sitting at the poker table and can't spot the fish - it's you!

Sorry couldn't resist.

 

[Stalker0]

I feel like the comparison to shield, while understandable, really ignores the true power of this spell.

Yes stopping your allies from getting hit is all well and good, but a proper wizard has already taken the means to reduce the danger of direct engagement.

What makes this thing so damn strong is the reroll of SAVING THROWS. This effectively boosts the spell DC on a critical spell by +5! That is incredible, and by itself as a 1st level spell would make this already top shelf incredible. Its the save strength as the sorcerer heighten spell metamagic except you only have to burn the resource if you actually need it, while the sorcerer has to commit the resource up front. The fact you also get to boost your allies is just icing on the already insanely delicious cake.

 

[OB1]

Honestly, I can imagine this ending up being declared a trap spell. You're using a slot, a known or prepared spell, and your reaction for a 60% chance (or so) to change an outcome in your favor. I think they added the granting of advantage to the spell because otherwise no one would ever take or cast it. Even the 95% chance to negate a crit is only situationally useful and the cost is still very high. If I can get my spellcasters to use this instead of counterspell in a round, I'm thrilled.

 

[Bolares]

Honestly, I can imagine this ending up being declared a trap spell. You're using a slot, a known or prepared spell, and your reaction for a 60% chance (or so) to change an outcome in your favor. I think they added the granting of advantage to the spell because otherwise no one would ever take or cast it. Even the 95% chance to negate a crit is only situationally useful and the cost is still very high. If I can get my spellcasters to use this instead of counterspell in a round, I'm thrilled.

Yeah, it’s most worth it in big fights. In big fights there’s a good chance de enemy has counterspell ans legendary resistances…

 

[ECMO3]

With both, you have 22 AC. Toss on defensive fighting style (23) and a +2 AC buff (like shield of faith) and you have 25 AC. Add in shield, and you can hit 30 AC. Against CR 10 or so foe (stone golem, young red dragon, deva), that is only getting hit on a crit. And most attacks don't even need the shield spell.

If you are playing, say, a Paladin 2/Bladesinger 6 you have plenty of slots to spend on shield.

1. First, you need a feat to cast shield while holding a weapon and a shield and you only get 1 feat at 2 Paladin/6 Bladesinger, so you have to take warcaster ...... no ASI ..... no GWM ..... no resilient con. Ax an alternative, I suppose you could take metamagic initiate and use careful spell for this, although that would be very limited.

2. This build is also very, MAD. Aside from passing on an ASI for warcaster, you also need a 13 in Charisma, intelligence and a high strength. While you are hard to hit, your dexterity saves suck and your constitution saves are probably nothing special (and if they are any good then both your wizard and Paladin spells have crappy hits and DCs and you dumped wisdom too). You also are in heavy armor and don't get the bladesinger bonus to movement or concentration saves (not that the latter matters since your intelligence is probably only 13 anyway).

3. If you fight 6 battles a day and start off each with haste or shield of faith then you can cast the shield spell shield 8 times a day (or a little more than once a battle) and a lot of those are being upcast. You also are using spell slots only for this and not doing any smites or casting any offensive spells.

I am not suggesting that it is not powerful, it is, but you are giving up a ton to get this build.

 

[ECMO3]

I feel like the comparison to shield, while understandable, really ignores the true power of this spell.

Yes stopping your allies from getting hit is all well and good, but a proper wizard has already taken the means to reduce the danger of direct engagement.

What makes this thing so damn strong is the reroll of SAVING THROWS. This effectively boosts the spell DC on a critical spell by +5! That is incredible, and by itself as a 1st level spell would make this already top shelf incredible. Its the save strength as the sorcerer heighten spell metamagic except you only have to burn the resource if you actually need it, while the sorcerer has to commit the resource up front. The fact you also get to boost your allies is just icing on the already insanely delicious cake.

War wizard can already boost saves by +4 with a reaction and not using a spell slot and a diviner can pick a roll. A fighter with indomitable can likewise reroll a failed save and we have an entire thread on here dedicated to how underpowered that is. A Rune Knight can give someone advantage or disadvantage as a reaction every turn for an entire minute.

Also a reroll is not the same as a +5. Advantage is loosely correlated to a +5, but that is only really true when the DC is 10 and only when you have not rolled the first dice. A reroll, when you have already failed, is equivalent to a straight up saving throw with no bonus. When that Green Dragon breaths on you and you need a natural 18 to succeed - If you fail and then use silivery barbs you have an 85% chance of failing again and wasting your spell slot.

 

[Mort]

I feel like the comparison to shield, while understandable, really ignores the true power of this spell.

Yes stopping your allies from getting hit is all well and good, but a proper wizard has already taken the means to reduce the danger of direct engagement.

What makes this thing so damn strong is the reroll of SAVING THROWS. This effectively boosts the spell DC on a critical spell by +5! That is incredible, and by itself as a 1st level spell would make this already top shelf incredible. Its the save strength as the sorcerer heighten spell metamagic except you only have to burn the resource if you actually need it, while the sorcerer has to commit the resource up front. The fact you also get to boost your allies is just icing on the already insanely delicious cake.

But it's not +5, it's a reroll. I believe it works out to an average bonus of +3-+5 on average, but unlike shield there is A LOT less certainty that it will work.

Is it good for clutch situations? Yes, I think it would be. But it's enough uncertainty and enough of a resource cost that I don't think it's overpowered as is.