D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?

[Cap'n Kobold]

Ok, but then you also have to compare number of uses.

No, I really don't think I do for the purposes of this comparison.
Remember that this side discussion is about the versatility of the spell, and that to replicate its capabilities you need very specific subclasses or other character choices.
If you want to shift the goal to comparing how many times you can use it compared to how many times you need to use it for various options, feel free to do that with someone else.

Any Pact of Chain Warlock with Investment of Chainmaster evocation using his bonus action to have his Sprite attack. No limit on uses.

Indeed. I believe Dasuul has addressed this themselves.

Because if you are casting silvery barbs he is not rolling a D20 twice, you are only rolling a D20 once.

The other dice is fixed and it is already a success before you cast the spell.

You realise that that is like claiming that if you roll disadvantage against DC10 using a red d20 for the base first, and a blue d20 for the disadvantage, applying disadvantage only gives a 50:50 chance if the red dice comes up a success? Don't you?
Remember we are comparing against a spell that needs to be cast beforehand in order to inflict disadvantage on the save.

Let us assume that our example Bard really needs to stick that Polymorph spell before their target does too much damage to the rest of the party. Their opponent has a decent Wisdom and is proficient in Wisdom saves, so there is a 50:50 chance of them succeeding.

Bard A Strategy: Disadvantage spell

First roll Disadvantage Roll Result
Success Success Success + Resource spent
Success Failure Failure + Resource spent
Failure Success Failure + Resource spent
Failure Success Failure + Resource spent
Overall chance of success: 1 in 4 (25%) + 100% chance of spending resource.

Bard B Strategy: Silvery Barbs
First roll Silvery Barbs reroll Result
Success Success Success + Resource spent
Success Failure Failure + Resource spent
Failure Success Failure
Failure Success Failure
Overall chance of success: 1 in 4 (25%) + 50% chance of spending resource.

Remember: one of the strengths of Silvery Barbs is that you don't have to use it if you don't need to. Memorising SB rather than the disadvantage spell to help get through saves means that you have exactly the same chance of landing the spell overall. You just might not need to actually cast Silvery Barbs.

For clarity, my statement was: SB will rarely cause an enemy to fail a save he has already succeeded on in game play.

I know, and it was that statement that I was taking issue with. In my experience it is quite rare to see a spell being cast if the opponent has better than 50:50 odds of succeeding on the save. Mistakes happen but generally spellcasters don't rely on a single save for their spells after low levels, and if they don't think it will be effective, they do something else.
IME usually, if a creature makes a save against a spell, it is because it got lucky and rolled high. Not because it rolled low but had a massive save bonus.

How much experience do you have playing with SB? I admittedly have no experience using or seeing the spell used yet, but I do understand the statistics around it. Unless you have seen it in play being effective for this often then you can't say you have experience that disagrees.

Two different parties currently have it available in games I run/am in.
Amusingly I have only seen it used to get a spell past saves a few times: a couple on Suggestion and once on Banishment IIRC. Not seen it negate any crits yet. Mostly I've seen it used with Skill/ability checks.
The most spectacular usage that it has been put to so far was in a major "rocket tag" fight against several spellcasters, when it was used in conjunction with Counterspell repeatedly, and to good effect.

Essentially the stars have to align with a whole string of things needed to make happen for SB to flip a save - within 60', reaction available, higher level spell cast, SB prepared, slot available, enemy suceeded on a save AND enemey fails on SB reroll.

That string of things will happen, but very rarely.

Most of those things are rather common. They aren't "stars align" rare. They're "Its Tuesday" rare.

 

[ECMO3]

You realise that that is like claiming that if you roll disadvantage against DC10 using a red d20 for the base first, and a blue d20 for the disadvantage, applying disadvantage only gives a 50:50 chance if the red dice comes up a success? Don't you?

If the DC is 10, the chance of succeeding is 55%, not 50%. It is like saying the blue dice has a 55% chance of suceeding regardless of the first.

If I roll a red and a blue dice with disadvantage and the red dice comes up as a success the enemy has a 55% chance of succeeding on the save with the (unkown) blue dice. But with disadvantage the red dice is not rolled yet when the condition is applied.

Remember we are comparing against a spell that needs to be cast beforehand in order to inflict disadvantage on the save.

Yes before either of the dice is known and when either unknown dice could potentially be a failure.

With SB only the blue dice can cause a failure. With disadvantage either dice can cause a failure.

Let's for the sake of arguement say you know the enemy needs a 8 to save, because I think this can illustrate my point better - You won't cast a spell if you know the enemy has a better than 50% chance of saving. However, if you can apply disadvantage in some fashion (say HS or mind sliver or bane) you can make it so he has a greater chance of failure than success and you know this when you use that resource. That resource when it is spent (SPs, cantrip, spell slot) will cause the enemy (or enemies) to have greater than a 50% chance of failure on his DC 8 save (assuming it lands).

Against the same opponent, you can't do that with Silvery Barbs. You can get into position and get ready and tell yourself he needs to pass two saves in a row, but once he passes the first you are left with a decision - do I use a slot on something he will probably pass or do I let it go. You say later on you don't cast spells that enemies have better than a 50:50 chance of saving against .... then you don't cast SB in this case right?

Let us assume that our example Bard really needs to stick that Polymorph spell before their target does too much damage to the rest of the party. Their opponent has a decent Wisdom and is proficient in Wisdom saves, so there is a 50:50 chance of them succeeding.

Bard B Strategy: Silvery Barbs
First roll Silvery Barbs reroll Result
Success Success Success + Resource spent
Success Failure Failure + Resource spent
Failure Success Failure
Failure Success Failure
Overall chance of success: 1 in 4 (25%) + 50% chance of spending resource.

The last two cases (noted in red) have nothing to do with sivery barbs. You did not use the spell. You do not even need it prepared and outcome would be the same.

The first two cases in Bard B are the only thing that is possible to do with SB. If the DC is high it is not likely that either of these cases will occur and you will not have an opportunity to use the slot. It will be usually a waste to prepare and save a slot for that encounter. If the DC is low the first case (success-success) will be the most common outcome. You will usually get to use it but it will not usually work.

This is mathematically true because of the relationship between the DC for the first save that triggers the spell and the second save that you roll.

The only time SB actually helps you is the second case (success-failure) and that will always be less than 25% of the time you are prepared to use it for such. ALWAYS!

In the example noted, if the DC is 10 and everything else is in place - the chance this will happen (success-failure) is 24.75% the other 75.25% of the time having SB will be completely irrelevant (case 3/4) or worse cost a 1st level slot and not change anything (case 1). Changing the DC below 10 or above 12 will make the chance it is useful even lower.

Remember: one of the strengths of Silvery Barbs is that you don't have to use it if you don't need to. Memorising SB rather than the disadvantage spell to help get through saves means that you have exactly the same chance of landing the spell overall. You just might not need to actually cast Silvery Barbs.

If you don't use it then it does nothing. Every time I prepare to use silvery barbs but don't use it, is a time that I am doing a bunch of needless and often counterproductive things, including preparing the spell and saving the slot.

Now the spell is very versitile and it is powerful, but if we are talking about reversing a save explicitly, it is not powerful at this becuase it is going to be very uncommon. If you prepare it and set up and wait to use it for this reason alone it will be rare that it will be helpful. You simply do not have enough higher level spell slots to get a positive outcome with this use often.

IME usually, if a creature makes a save against a spell, it is because it got lucky and rolled high. Not because it rolled low but had a massive save bonus.

Then unless the sample of your experience is statistically biased - it is necessarily uncommon for creatures to make saves and therefore your chances the opportunity to use SB for this will be uncommon and the chance to actually change the save are going to be even less.

If this is what you intend to use it for, and these are the only creatures you are casting spells against it will be a spell that is prepared but not often used. In this respect it will be like feather fall. Very poweful and perhaps game changing when you get to use it, but you won't get to use it often.

FWIW in games I play there are all kinds of extremes in terms of saves. As I mentioned above, I tried to banish the Pit Fiend Bel and I think he needed a 7 to save.

Amusingly I have only seen it used to get a spell past saves a few times: a couple on Suggestion and once on Banishment IIRC. Not seen it negate any crits yet. Mostly I've seen it used with Skill/ability checks.
The most spectacular usage that it has been put to so far was in a major "rocket tag" fight against several spellcasters, when it was used in conjunction with Counterspell repeatedly, and to good effect.

Yeah this is a much wider use of the spell, which is what I would expect. The spell is very versatile, but it is not OP.

Your first point - that you have only seen it used to get past saves a few times, illustrates my entire point.

Most of those things are rather common. They aren't "stars align" rare. They're "Its Tuesday" rare.

The last two conditions alone will never have more than 25% chance of happening. If every single time you cast a spell you have a 1st level slot and have SB prepared and are within 60 feet and have a reaction and can see the enemy ..... If these things are always 100% the case (and they are not). The chance SB will flip the saving throw is still 25% OR less.

 

[NotAYakk]

Bob has SB. Bob casts "instant win" on Monster. Monster has a 50% chance of saving.

Monster loses 75% of the time. Bob has to cast SB 50% of the time.

Alice has Disadvantage debuff. Alice also wants to cast "instant win" on the same Monster. Monster has a 50% chance of saving before disadvantage.

Monster loses 75% of the time. Alice has to use Disadvantage debuff 100% of the time.

As demonstrated, SB is strictly better than a disadvantage debuff. Same chance to land the spell, only has to spend resources less often.

If monster gained advantage, Bob has a 5/8 chance of landing "Instant win", Alice has a 50% chance.

(Bob in this case needs to cast SB 3/4 of the time).

Your math is precicely modelling the wrong thing. It doesn't matter how many decimal places you use.

 

[ECMO3]

Bob has SB. Bob casts "instant win" on Monster. Monster has a 50% chance of saving.

Monster loses 75% of the time. Bob has to cast SB 50% of the time.

Bob gets ready to cast "instant win" followed by SB. 75% of the time SB will have no effect at all on the outcome of "instant win". He will have set all this up for nothing.

50% of the time the exact same thing would have happened if Bob did not prepare SB at all. He could have prepared any other spell instead of SB and the outcome of this encounter would be the same.

25% of the time the same thing would have happened without also using a 1st level slot.

If Bob has the opportunity to cast SB his 1st level slot will cause the monster to have a 50% of losing when he casts it, not 75%. He spends this knowing there is a 50% chance the monster will succeed.

"Instant Win" sounds powerful, so I assume it is a 6th or higher level spell. If instant win is a 6th or higher level spell, Bob will get traction out of using SB with instant win once every 4 days on average (assuming he casts it every day in position and saves a slot) if he is lucky enough to encounter monster or someone else who needs an 11 to save (it is actually less if the save is higher or lower than 11). The other 3 days SB will be a complete waste unless he uses it for something other than pairing with instant win.

If monster gained advantage, Bob has a 5/8 chance of landing "Instant win"

(Bob in this case needs to cast SB 3/4 of the time).

Your total chance of landing instant win when you have SB ready is 50% not 5/8. SB can only affect 1 dice not both, so you take the highest dice (assuming it succeeds) and compare that with the reroll taking the lowest. Then you go back and take the higher of this new value or the lower initial roll. (PHB page 173).

The result is, Instant win is successful when the the monster rolled lower than the DC on both of his rolls (25%) or when he rolled lower than the DC on only one of his two rolls and also rolls lower than the DC on the SB reroll. If monster rolls above the DC on both his rolls with advantage Bob can not change the outcome regardless of the SB reroll. You have a 25% chance of not needing SB, a 50% chance of casting it and failing and a 25% chance of casting it and succeeding.

Here is how to do it mathematically:

If monster gained advantage there are 3 dice in play and there is a methodology to applying this. Dice A, Dice B, Dice S.

First you take the higher of A or B - max(A,B)

If max(A,B) succeeds on the save you spend the spell slot and take the lower of that dice and S - min(S,max(A,B))

Then you take the higher of this dice and the dice left behind on the first roll max(min(A,B),min(S, max(A,B))) to account for advantage. This is what is perscribed in the PHB when you replace a dice on a roll with advantage or disadvantage. In boolean notation it would be (S&(A|B))|(A&B). It is a lot easier to do when you are looking at the dice than trying to think through it.

Here is per die outcome (1 is success, 0 is failure)

A-B--S
0-0--X SB not cast, Result Fail 25%
0-1--0 SB replaces 1, Result Fail 12.5%
1-0--0 SB replaces 1, Result Fail 12.5%
1-1--0 SB replaces 1, Result Succeed 12.5% - This is the one you were counting as a failure in 5/8.
0-1--1 Result Succeed 12.5%
1-0--1 Result Succeed 12.5%
1-1--1 Result Succeed 12.5%

Again though, SB has no effect on the outcome 75% of the time. It only affects the outcome when the conditions in red above happen. This is using it with a DC 11 (50%) if you change that DC in either way, harder or easier, this number will go down.

Further when you cast SB in this case it only has a 33% chance of working and changing the result to a fail. When the DM says "monster saves, do you want to cast SB" - you know monster has a 67% chance of succeeding in his save if you cast it. If you know the DC is 11 and monster has advantage when you cast SB you know it is not going to work most of the time when you use your reaction and spend your slot.

Also the overall chance of "Instant Win" working in this case is the same as being able to cancel advantage only because the DC is 11. If you make the DC easier canceling advantage will be more effective numerically, if you make it harder SB has less of a chance of affecting the outcome but a higher overall chance of landing "instant win".

 

[p_johnston]

You are wrong and that is why you refuse to actually post numbers to back up your claim.

Disadadvantage is explained on page 7 of the PHB. It requires rolling TWO dice. Thes generate TWO random numbers between 1 and 20 and you take the lower number.

SB requires rolling ONE dice generating a number between 1 and 20. You then compare that ONE random number a fixed value higher than the difficulty check and take the lower dice.

Give me a single numerical example against any DC, where using Silvery Barbs will be the equivalent of disadvantage in terms of making an enemy fail. Please post the actual numbers, not your opinion.

So the two things being compared would be SB vs a theoretical spell that acts in the same manner except that instead of a reroll you can use it to cause the target to roll with disadvantage, meaning you have to decide before the initial roll.

Assuming a flat roll that already didn't have advantage or disadvantage
Taken as a chance from the start of the ability that they have to save against to the resolution of that ability the effects of both spells would be that the opponent rolls 2d20 and if either are a failure that is the one the use. The only difference is the point at which you decide to use the spell. With disadvantage you would have to use it before they roll anything. With SB you decide after they have rolled 1d20.

Since you want numbers let's look at the simplest example. DC 16 and they have a +5. an even 50/50 chance of failure or success.
Making the save with no outside interference: .5
Making the save if they have disadvantage: .25
Making the save if they have advantage: .75

Silvery barbs If the have neither advantage nor disadvantage: .25 (they have a .5 chance of Success. Of the .5 chance of success they will re-roll with a new .5 chance of failure meaning that they will end up with only a .25 chance of success)

Silvery barbs when they have disadvantage: .0625 (they have a .25 chance of Success. Of the .25 chance of success they will re-roll with a new .25 chance of success endings up with .0625 chance of success.)

Silvery barbs when they have advantage: .5625 (they have a .75 chance of Success. Of the .75 chance of success they will re-roll with a new .75 chance of success endings up with .5625 chance of success.)

To put it into the simplest possible terms.Assuming a flat roll with no advantage or disadvantage before hand when a person uses SB to make an opponent re-roll a save or an ability causes that opponent to roll with disadvantage the opponent is doing the exact same thing. They are taking 2d20 and taking whichever one would make the save a failure.

Edit: So I made the post with (possibly) a slight misunderstanding of how Silvery Barbs works. Based on wording when rolling with Advantage/Disadvantage it would be reasonable to say they only re-roll only a single dice and use that result if it would be lower.
So the math based on that.

Silvery barbs when they have disadvantage: .125 (they have a .25 chance of Success. Of the .25 chance of success they will re-roll with a new .5 chance of success endings up with ..125 chance of success.)

Silvery barbs when they have advantage: .375 (they have a .75 chance of Success. Of the .75 chance of success they will re-roll with a new .5 chance of success endings up with .375 chance of success.)

If anything that particular ruling would make SB even better because it also effectively let's you bypass Magic Resistance or anything else that would give advantage on the save.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

If the DC is 10, the chance of succeeding is 55%, not 50%.

Whups. You're perfectly correct: I looked through the MM to get an idea of typical Wis Saves, decided to stick to 50:50 for simplicity's sake, and looks like I described it wrong anyway. DC would be 16 but we're assuming a +5 save bonus.

The last two cases (noted in red) have nothing to do with sivery barbs. You did not use the spell. You do not even need it prepared and outcome would be the same.

The first two cases in Bard B are the only thing that is possible to do with SB. If the DC is high it is not likely that either of these cases will occur and you will not have an opportunity to use the slot. It will be usually a waste to prepare and save a slot for that encounter. If the DC is low the first case (success-success) will be the most common outcome. You will usually get to use it but it will not usually work.

By your same logic, in the first two cases of using the disadvantage spell, casting the spell was a waste.
50% of the time, they would have failed their save anyway.

Just casting Polymorph once has a 50% chance of the opponent failing the save.
Overall odds of the target getting frogged is 50% overall.

Disadvantage spell improves the chance of failing the save to 50% x 50% = 75%. A 25% improvement on not using the extra slot.
Overall odds of the target getting frogged is 75% overall.

Memorising and being willing to use Silvery Barbs improves the chance of failing the save to (50% chance of fail + 50% chance of turning success into failure. 50% + (50% x 50%) = 75%. A 25% improvement on not using the extra slot.
Overall odds of the target getting frogged is 75% overall.

Casting Polymorph again the next round improves the chance of failing the save to (50% chance of failing the first time. If succeeded, 50% chance of failing the second time.) 50% + (50 x 50%) = 75%. A 25% improvement on only casting the spell once.
Overall odds of the target getting frogged is 75% overall.

If you don't use it then it does nothing. Every time I prepare to use silvery barbs but don't use it, is a time that I am doing a bunch of needless and often counterproductive things, including preparing the spell and saving the slot.

If you didn't need the disadvantage spell, it does nothing. Every time you cast the disadvantage spell but the target would have saved anyway, is a time that you are doing a bunch of needless and often counterproductive things, including preparing the spell and using the slot.

Then unless the sample of your experience is statistically biased - it is necessarily uncommon for creatures to make saves and therefore your chances the opportunity to use SB for this will be uncommon and the chance to actually change the save are going to be even less.

If this is what you intend to use it for, and these are the only creatures you are casting spells against it will be a spell that is prepared but not often used. In this respect it will be like feather fall. Very poweful and perhaps game changing when you get to use it, but you won't get to use it often.

Save proficiencies in the Monster Manual are rare and even with proficiency, the bonus is often less than the caster's primary ability score + proficiency. You don't need to cast Silvery Barbs for the purpose of getting through a save as often as you cast Polymorph, Banishment, or Suggestion etc, but you will want to cast it more often than any one of those spells.
Plus casting it for its other uses.

FWIW in games I play there are all kinds of extremes in terms of saves. As I mentioned above, I tried to banish the Pit Fiend Bel and I think he needed a 7 to save.

As mentioned, mistakes happen. I'm not sure whether pit fiends are proficient in Charisma saves, but most high-end outsiders are described as having great presence and Charisma. If your DM mentioned that and you chose to throw a charisma-save spell anyway, there is always a risk. But sometimes it is what your character would do anyway, and sometimes it is worth the risk, even at a very low chance of success.

Your first point - that you have only seen it used to get past saves a few times, illustrates my entire point.

No, it really doesn't. Over the last month and a bit, there have been a lot of spells cast. Generally for good reason, and generally with a decent chance of success. In most cases, Silvery Barbs has turned a failure for the group into a success, and it has been one of the most common spells cast in the high-level game, and only edged out in the low-level one because they're getting into a lot of fights.

The last two conditions alone will never have more than 25% chance of happening. If every single time you cast a spell you have a 1st level slot and have SB prepared and are within 60 feet and have a reaction and can see the enemy ..... If these things are always 100% the case (and they are not). The chance SB will flip the saving throw is still 25% OR less.

That is more usage than practically any other single spell I can think of.

 

[ECMO3]

The only difference is the point at which you decide to use the spell. With disadvantage you would have to use it before they roll anything. With SB you decide after they have rolled 1d20.

And at that point of decision, disadvantage is ALWAYS more powerful than SB. Every single time.

By the way, I am certainly not suggesting that something that could apply disadvantage to one roll for a 1st level slot is powerful. Applying disadvantage in general to one roll would be a very weak use of a spell slot and something more appropriate for a cantrip IMO. Cause Fear can cost disadvantage to all attacks and abilities for an entire minute, and it is a good but not OP spell. Bane can give a -1d4 to attacks and saves to 3 enemies for a minute and is generally considered a mediocre spell.

The real power in SB comes in its wide array of uses and the fact it can be used as a reaction.

Silvery barbs when they have advantage: .5625 (they have a .75 chance of Success. Of the .75 chance of success they will re-roll with a new .75 chance of success endings up with .5625 chance of success.)

You can only replace one dice not both. Look in the PHB page 173. That said I don't really understand the numbers here or in your corrected post (perhaps I read them wrong).

You replace one of the dice (the highest) with the lower of that dice or SB and then you determine success or failure based on the highest of the dice that was replaced/compared and the other dice that was not replaced.

This means with advantage and a DC 11, if you are ready and do apply Silvery Barbs every time they succeed they will have a 50% chance overall of suceeding on the save (which is the same as if disadvantage was applied to make it flat). The possibilities are they fail both initial rolls (Fail 25%), they fail one initial roll and the SB reroll (Fail 25%), The fail one initial roll and succeed on the SB reroll (succeed 25%), they succeed on both initial rolls and the SB reroll happens but does not matter (succeed 25%)

Note, SB is only equivalent to applying disadvantage on a roll with advantage at this one DC of 11. If the DC is lower than 11 changing it to a flat roll will result in a failure more than SB. For example if DC is 8 applying disadvantage to a roll with advantage will make the enemy fail 35% of the time. Being ready with silvery Barbs and casting in on a successful save would result in an overall 28% chance of failure. For reference a straight up failure with advantage is 12%.

If the DC is higher than 11 having SB on tap will actually work more often overall than making it a flat roll.

To put it into the simplest possible terms.Assuming a flat roll with no advantage or disadvantage before hand when a person uses SB to make an opponent re-roll a save or an ability causes that opponent to roll with disadvantage the opponent is doing the exact same thing. They are taking 2d20 and taking whichever one would make the save a failure.

Not at the point it takes affect. SB is a reroll, it is not disadvantage. It is only the same statistically if you are including the results where you will not actually cast the spell, and that is often.

SB has no effect if the enemy fails the save. It is a waste to have it ready, to be in position and have a slot prepared if that is the case. This will happen often if the DC is high. The reroll itself will fail a lot if the DC is low.

We are using DC11 which is the absolute best case for SB. In this ideal case it will change the outcome 25%. At any other DC it will change the outcome LESS than 1 time in 4.
E

Edit: So I made the post with (possibly) a slight misunderstanding of how Silvery Barbs works. Based on wording when rolling with Advantage/Disadvantage it would be reasonable to say they only re-roll only a single dice and use that result if it would be lower.

PHB page 173 discusses replacing a dice with advantage/disadvantage. You only reroll and replace one of the two dice (highest in this case) and then reapply the advantage/disadvantage mechanic with both. You do not reroll both dice, nor do you replace both dice with the one SB reroll. You replace one of the dice.

If you are talking about the advantage relationship with SB - If the opponent has advantage and rolls higher than his save with both dice, SB can be cast but it can never change the result to a failure because the dice not replaced is still a success.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

 

[p_johnston]

Not at the point it takes affect. SB is a reroll, it is not disadvantage. It is only the same statistically if you are including the results where you will not actually cast the spell, and that is often.

So this seems to be the crux of the argument. Me (and most of the other people who are arguing about this) are saying that the only valid way to compare a reroll vs Disadvantage is to include the results where you do not actually cast the spell. The only valid comparison of a reroll vs disadvantage is if you take into account all possibilities from the earliest point that either can be applied until the effect is resolved. If you only take into account possibilities that occur after you use SB and then compare it to applying disadvantage before any rolling takes place your comparing apples and oranges.

Your main point seems to be that the majority of time SB will not see use because if they are likely to fail the save they probably failed it on the first roll which means that SB will not get used and if they are likely to pass the save then they are likely to pass it again on any reroll. Hence SB is wasted learned/prepared spell in that regard because it is unlikely to come up. (Please correct me on this if I'm wrong)

As a counterpoint I would say that having SB as a prepared/learned spell is a very minor cost (especially at later levels) especially with the variety of other uses that are available for it. In addition the times that it does come up with a reroll having a dramatic effect on the game are likely to be times that have an outsized effect. The times where it will likely come into play are going to be boss battles where it makes it more likely that instead of an epic confrontation with a villain the party ends up with 2 rounds of beating the pinata because the wizard paralyzed/hypnotized/banished the big bad.

As a comparison look at counterspell. On average you are not going to use counterspell that often. In fact you are likely only going to use it during boss fights because those are the enemies that tend to have spells worth countering. But even if you only are going to use it 1 in 15 battles it is still a really good spell to have because the times it's good it will be really good. SB is in pretty much the same boat in regards to rerolling the saves except unlike counterspell you can use it to negate crits, stop hits, and grant advantage.

P.S. In regards to my math on SB with dis/advantage the way I read the spell if the target is initially rolling with advantage and you use SB they must take whatever number is rerolled on the dice if it's lower. For example if they initially roll 20 and 18 and you force them to reroll the 20 and they get a 4 they have to take the 4 not the 18. Mostly because the spell specifically states "it rerolls the d20 and must use the lower roll" which as a specific rule for a spell overrides the general rule for advantage.

P.P.S I severely dislike how rerolling works with dis/advantage not just for SB but in general. It's unintuitive and most effects that have it are poorly written for a system where rolling multiple d20's are common.

P.P.P.S HAPPY NEW YEARS.

 

[Garthanos]

Sure two casters and two resource expenditures AND team work you need your reactions available, its really not bothering me. Would bother me even less if it was ummm like this (using Level Up).

Disruptive War Cry (cost 3)
1st Degree Sanguine Knot reaction
"With a well timed signature battle cry you distract the enemy and turn its momentary uncertainty into a source of encouragement for your allies”.
When a creature within 60 feet succeeds on an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw, you use your reaction to shout a distracting battle cry. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll. You can then choose a different creature you can see within range (you can choose yourself). The chosen creature has advantage on the next attack roll, ability check, or saving throw it makes within 1 minute. A creature can be empowered by only one use of this maneuver at a time.

A variant of this "Disruptive Shot" involves snapshot firing or throwing a missile even an improvised one such as a rock, the timing is everything and non-trivial. (probably not as easy to inspire as the war cry possibly easier to disrupt)

 

[Stalker0]

One thing to clarity, SB is not a “reroll” in the truist sense, it is a new roll that can replace the original result.

this is important when considering advantage/disadvantage, SB doesn’t care about those conditions, the new roll is unaffected. For example, many high cr monsters have magic resistance, to make up for relatively low saves. SB gets an extra boost here, as the new roll won’t have advantage and so SB has a much higher chance of being effective.