D&D (2024) Simplifying Dual Wielding in 5e-2024

[CM]

As a 20+ (sigh) 30+ year DM, not very happy with the complicated interaction of Dual Wielder, Light weapon property, and Nick weapon mastery. Particularly the fact that there's no way to use two one-handed non-light weapons without having to use Extra Attack. I want people to be able to pair or mix & match rapiers, battleaxes, warhammers, longswords, etc. like every dual-wielding barbarian miniature ever produced. The 2024 rules, however, require you to lead with a wimpy little Light weapon to trigger the bonus action attack, giving me the nonsensical mental image of some barbarian maining dagger and offhanding a warhammer.

The only change I made was to Dual Wielder:

Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. You treat all one-handed* melee weapons as if they had the Light property.

*Yes, technically, this should say "melee weaons that lack the two-handed property"

What this does:

• Round-to-round you can choose which of your two melee weapons to lead with, treating either as your "main" attack action (that gets the ability score damage bonus) and then use your bonus action to attack with the other. More options for situational weapon masteries!
• With Extra Attack in the mix, you can attack with either weapon first to trigger DW, use Extra Attack to attack again with either (with ability bonus) and use the bonus action attack with the offhand (or the mainhand again, if you used your Extra Attack to do the offhand) and no ability bonus.
• Side effect: can dual-throw javelins, spears, tridents, etc.

What it stops:

• All 1H weapons are Light, so no need to worry about which weapon you have to attack first with.
• No 4th attack with the Extra Attack + Light + DW + Nick combo (shrug).

What it doesn't affect:

• Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style feat exactly the same.
• Nick is confusion-free.
• Off-handing or dual-wielding hand crossbows still works fine.

What are your thoughts? Did I miss anything? Grossly overpowered or unconscionable nerf to Nick fiends?

 

[GMMichael]

What if Dual Wielding just doesn't provide an extra attack? The benefits of dual wielding include 1) the freedom to attack with a different, possibly more effective weapon, and 2) still being armed after being disarmed.

I'd think trying to attack with two weapons would divide the strength or inertia behind each.

I guess that makes my vote "grossly overpowered."

 

[evilbob]

TWF is definitely somehow more confusing in 5.5. You can get 3 attacks at level 4 with Dual Weilding, but only one of them adds your Dex to damage. It really seems like Hunter's Mark is required to go anywhere with this, unless you're a fighter or someone who can take the TWF feat, but that only adds your modifier to one of the extra attacks. There are so many different pieces of the puzzle to put together, strewn out over two weapon features and two feats, and in the end it feels like you're just not doing all that much.

I don't think the suggested tweak in the OP is going to hurt anything. If anything, losing one of the attacks is probably a nerf, even if you're trading up a higher damage die.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

TWF is definitely somehow more confusing in 5.5. You can get 3 attacks at level 4 with Dual Weilding, but only one of them adds your Dex to damage. It really seems like Hunter's Mark is required to go anywhere with this, unless you're a fighter or someone who can take the TWF feat, but that only adds your modifier to one of the extra attacks. There are so many different pieces of the puzzle to put together, strewn out over two weapon features and two feats, and in the end it feels like you're just not doing all that much.

I don't think the suggested tweak in the OP is going to hurt anything. If anything, losing one of the attacks is probably a nerf, even if you're trading up a higher damage die.

Monk/Ranger murders everything with TWF, but tbh I haven’t felt any lack of competence playing a TWF rogue or Ranger.

 

[D-03-109 MeltingLove]

But, what is 'one-handed'? Lacks Two-handed tag is not enough at all.
If lacks Two-handed tag equals One-handed, we can use Longsword attack once(then put it back), (pull a new out and)Longsword attack once. Cause it has no Two-handed tag, it will be considered as a Light weapon and gain benefit——but in really game instance, you're attacking with two handed.

You treat all melee weapons without Two-handed and Versatile properties as if they had the Light property.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Personally, I love 5e 2024 TWF.

Granted, it's because it's hilarious that it's an example of exactly what I said would happen when they "switched to keywords" that somehow "make everything very easy" so the game never has any rules confusion that is "obviously caused by natural language".

It's exactly what many players wished for for all of 5e 2014, even though those of us that played a lot of 3e and 4e tried to explain the problem that keywords create. Gosh, it seems that keywords, the Platonic ideal of synthetic language, turn the game into a rules lawyer puzzle that easily returns answers that break immersion and discourage realism! Wow, if only we knew that from 15 years of gaming experience.

My table simply had a discussion about how we were going to play it. We agreed that Nick + DW intentionally adds another attack, so that you get Attack + Extra Attack + Nick + DW. And then we agreed that there are no stupid weapon drawing exploits because that's not the fiction. We're all reasonable people, so we don't have to hyper codify 10,000 exceptions for the "what if" concern police.

Now I get to just play the game with an established behavior, and I get to watch people online discover the reality of deep keywords. It's great.