Single-Level Flavor (heh!) Classes

[Iron_Chef]

I've gone back and adopted the +2 total split between BAB and saves to my classes on page 1, as well as making "Permanant Class Skills" a clearly spelled out class ability. Both good ideas.

I'm not sure about limiting the feats/special ability to one if the class gives +1 BAB or +1 existing caster level, however. Some concepts can't be done like that, especially if it gives several abilities that won't see all that much use while adventuring except in special situations (such as the slaver).

 

[Graf]

The flavor classes are pretty clearly, a good idea for those who want them.
[If you really don't like the idea then don't use it. Long posts from people insisting that people should stop working on a given idea because they don't like it always confuse me. Comments aside a lot of this stuff can't been done with feats easily -- the abilties are too powerful to really function as feats, you need to give soemthing up from the class to maintain balance.]

I also don't think that limiting the bab&saves to a total of +2 is such a hot idea. I thought the gladiator was perfectly balanced, as was (except for the number of skills). I don't think that every class needs to have lots of Bab&saves either though (something re-enforced by the Survivor class in Savage Species).

Re: the court mage.... obviously it's your class and if you really love the power that's fine.... I was under the impression that the class was supposed to be a common figure. I have trouble imagining a court mage who runs around trying to magically control their leige (once a week, with a single use of a 3rd level spell) being terribly common. While the evil-wizard-controling-the-king is a common trope in a real fantasy world I expect that every court mage would be doing it.
A bonus on sense motive, dipolmacy and bluff related to courtly matters seems more in line, useful, and balanced to me. And it would enable good or lawful characters to easily take it.

One comment about the arcane casters and balance... compare it with a Sorcerer, not a wizard, especially since there are no prequistes.
Ex: You can be come a loremaster several levels earlier as a wizard than as a Sorc, if you choose the right bonus feats. So while the wizard gives up more when they become a loremaster it's balanced out because they've used less core class levels to get those abilities.
This isn't true of these sorts of classes though, because they lack mechanical prequistes. Except for spellcasting powers sorcerers get very little for advancing in there class (familiar improvements really), so they make a better baseline for checking balance.

 

[Iron_Chef]

I agree it is irritating to have a bunch of people come in and badmouth the idea and having to waste time countering their claims. Constructive criticism is welcome, but posting to discourage the development of an idea a bunch of people obviously want to explore is kinda rude and pointless.

 

[green slime]

Well, I think you guys should go for your idea, what ever rocks your boat.

Personally, I don't see that what is happening here can't be done without introducing a feat, or tweeking the skill selection somewhat.

I really, really can't see a player giving up a spellcasting level to take (for instance) "Artisan" flavour class. I could however envision a character taking a feat providing the same benefit (half manufacturing time). Not that it would be likely. But still possible.

 

[Iron_Chef]

You're getting permanent class skills and a unique special ability or two. That's nothing to sneeze at. That's why you'd take a level in a flavor class. These could be parceled out into feats or tweaked skill selections, but it's easier to apply the benefits by just making it a 1 level class.

The court mage frex, still gets +1 spellcaster level and gets a unique metamagicked suggestion ability. Why not take a level in it?

 

[green slime]

hmmm... But then what is preventing all the wizard players from taking a level in "court mage" in order to maximize/power game? As they aren't giving up anything.

Not that that phenomena is just bad, but because if ALL mages are also court mages, then it should be handled in a different manner.

Perhaps have a series of these flavour classes, if you like, but limit their availability to one per character? You then have to ensure that there is at least 4 or 5 reasonable (read interesting)ones per base class, in order to get some variety in your game.

 

[The Proconsul]

Well, I always assumed that, if the flavor classes where to be used, they would cover most archetypes.

Also, consider that the typical spellslinging arcane artillery mage is not GAINING much either. I think that these flavor classes should almost never be frontloaded. They would, in my eyes, at least, represent a character's role in society beside being an adventurer. For those that are only this, the core and PrCs are already quite sufficient, I would think.

@Graf: I admit, I disagree. A court is always a breeding place of intrigue and deception, and anyone who wants to take part more or less professionaly with it, will adopt these techniques sooner or later. At least, that's what a court would be like if it's an interesting location for an adventure. At least, that would be the case were I a DM .

The Artisan is perhaps really not all that useful though. I agree few players would choose it, and statting a simple, nono-combatant artisan would probably not be worth the hassle most of the time.

[Edit: added 2nd, 3rd paragraph]

 

[Frostmarrow]

I'm back with a new thought about the skills. Since some people are smarter than others they should be able to put that extra intelligence to use when choosing a flavor class.

As it stands now there is a guideline that says:

THOUGHTS ON BALANCING MECHANICS (aka "Restrictions")

3. Limiting skill points to to the number of class skills (already adopted).

Perhaps that rule should read: "Limiting skill points to to the number of class skills +1".

Allow me to explain. If you have an Int +1 you wont have any place to put that extra point. Therefore we need a number of class skills equal to skillpoints +1. If a character is smarter than that i.e. Int +2 they can afford to buy a cross-class rank. +3 means you can cover all class skills and one cross-class.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Oh I just realised that humans already get +1 skill points which makes this change pretty important.

 

[The Proconsul]

Allow me to explain. If you have an Int +1 you wont have any place to put that extra point. Therefore we need a number of class skills equal to skillpoints +1. If a character is smarter than that i.e. Int +2 they can afford to buy a cross-class rank. +3 means you can cover all class skills and one cross-class.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Oh I just realised that humans already get +1 skill points which makes this change pretty important.

That depends on whether you allow to save skill points to be spent later.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Rat Catcher

A rat catcher makes his living catching rats and is payed a sum in copper per rat killed, by the community.

BAB +0
Fort +1
Ref +1
Will +0

Weapon proficiency: Hand crossbow

Hit points: 1d8

Skill points: 4

Class skills: Climb, Handle Animal, Knowledge (local), Spot, Wilderness Lore. (4+1 skills)

Permanent skills: The Rat Catcher may choose any four skills from the above list to be permanent class skills.

Disease Immunity: A Rat Catcher is immune to all diseases. This does not include magical diseases such as Mummy's rot or Lycanthropy.

Favored Enemy (Vermin): Due to his extensive study of his foes and training in the proper techniques for combating them, the rat catcher gains a +1 bonus to Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Wilderness Lore checks when using these skills against this type of creature. Likewise, he gets the same bonus to weapon damage rolls against creatures of this type. A rat catcher also gets the damage bonus with ranged weapons, but only against targets within 30 feet (the rat catcher cannot strike with deadly accuracy beyond that range). The bonus doesn't apply to damage against creatures that are immune to critical hits.

Edit: damn that cut and paste.