Single-Level Flavor (heh!) Classes
- Thread starter TeeSeeJay
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Frostmarrow
First Post
The Proconsul said:
Alright, but I still think we should make one set of guidelines that covers both alternatives.
Iron_Chef said:
Of course you don't find these "flavor classes" (heh!) silly, I.C. That's not really a point of contention. I concede that you're misguided about the importance of this concept.
But do you really think it's necessary for a DM to make "a much better encounter" just by "throwing flavor classes at his PCs?" 1. It's a weak DM who has to resort to throwing anything at a player party. 2. If those "flavor class" (heh!) characters are NPCs, then it doesn't really matter what the DM's secret notes say because the players can't see them anyway.
And who exactly is going to be defining these single-level "flavor classes" (heh!)? The DM? -- "You get a Will +1 save with this titled class. Not Reflex +1. Because I said so." Or the player? -- "I want X number of points to use any way I want because obviously I don't have the imagination necessary to play a character by the options already provided in the rules."
Tell ya what, let's take this brilliant "flavor class" (heh!) concept and raise it to the next level: Every character experience level you gain, you can apply +2 save points in any manner you see fit, +4-8 skill points, a spell level or rogue sneak bonus, and some vaguely defined feat-like ability. Anything you want. We'll call each level by a special name. We'll pretend it has prerequisites that forced the player to make choices.
... And we'll be playing something other than d20 D&D.
Samothdm said:
Gee, ya think?
Frostmarrow
First Post
I was thinking about the weapon proficiencies. I think there should be some guidelines on how to apply these.
These are my thoughts:
Flavor classes ought to have from 0-3 weapon proficiencies. How many are applied to a certain class is a balance issue. Which weapons can be applied depends on individual weapon damage. The weapons chosen should fit the concept rather than conform to simple, martial or exotic weapon status. I.e. a slaver should know how to use a bull whip just because that's how we perceive slavers (even though whip is considered exotic). No weapon that does more than 1d8 should be granted by a flavor class and even those should be rare, in order not to compete with the core fighter classes. Weapons that does 1d4 or 1d6 should be common. E.g a legionair could get short sword and javelin.
This means that a 1st level legionair knows two lethal weapons. A wizard who becomes a legionair learns two weapons. A fighter who becomes a legionair doesn't learn anything he didn't already know.
A 1st level slaver knows one exotic weapon (whip). A wizard who becomes a legionair learns one new weapon. A fighter who becomes a slaver learns a new weapon too. (But maybe a bard doesn't).
The same goes for armor and shields. Flavor classes should get armor and shields as appropriate but only as appropriate. E.g. Just because a legionair knows medium armor and large shields doesn't necessarily mean that the legionair is proficient with light armor and bucklers. Perhaps this unrealistic but we have a limited playing field here.
These are my thoughts:
Flavor classes ought to have from 0-3 weapon proficiencies. How many are applied to a certain class is a balance issue. Which weapons can be applied depends on individual weapon damage. The weapons chosen should fit the concept rather than conform to simple, martial or exotic weapon status. I.e. a slaver should know how to use a bull whip just because that's how we perceive slavers (even though whip is considered exotic). No weapon that does more than 1d8 should be granted by a flavor class and even those should be rare, in order not to compete with the core fighter classes. Weapons that does 1d4 or 1d6 should be common. E.g a legionair could get short sword and javelin.
This means that a 1st level legionair knows two lethal weapons. A wizard who becomes a legionair learns two weapons. A fighter who becomes a legionair doesn't learn anything he didn't already know.
A 1st level slaver knows one exotic weapon (whip). A wizard who becomes a legionair learns one new weapon. A fighter who becomes a slaver learns a new weapon too. (But maybe a bard doesn't).
The same goes for armor and shields. Flavor classes should get armor and shields as appropriate but only as appropriate. E.g. Just because a legionair knows medium armor and large shields doesn't necessarily mean that the legionair is proficient with light armor and bucklers. Perhaps this unrealistic but we have a limited playing field here.
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Iron_Chef said:
I'm of the thought that a flavor class should be just as viable at first level as any other core class; Does any "full" class receive less an +2 on one of their saves? I'm thinking (a) +2 to a single save; (b) +0 or +1 BAB; and (c) a hit die as a die class lower than the most closely associated core class (gladiator d8, because fighter d10)
Fair enough.
Okay.
I've been doing it as a class ability: "Skill Affinity (ex): The character retains an affinity with class skills marked with an asterisk (*), and can treat these skills as class skills regardless of future development."
I did it this way because I started lumping in a lot of the "standard" skills as class skills (spot, listen, search) on top of the "flavor" skills for the class.
I hope what I wrote makes sense; I have so little time right now to think coherently AND type.
OK, you guys have won me over. I'm really starting to get into the swing of things now....
I'm thinking that instead of a single "flavor class" (heh!) level, the game system should be revised to allow a player to apply, say, 20 CDPs (Character Development Points) in any of the following areas: saves, attributes, skills, hitpoints, BAB, and feats/abilities.
The way it would work is this: when you gain a new character level, you retroactively declare which *previous* skills, feats, etc., will be considered "prerequisites" for the character level bonuses you're about to take now. Then you apply up to +2 CDPs in your save categories, up to +10 CDPs in hit points (each die size worth 2 CDPs, of course), up to +8 CDPs in skill points, up to +1 CDPs in BAB, *maybe* a +1 CDP in attributes, and any remainder CDPs in special class abilities like spellcasting or rogue sneaking. In that latter category would also fall feats and feat-like abilities of various value (CDP costs to be assigned later).
And furthermore, at each new level, you get to attach a new class title for yourself -- Elemental Mage, for example, or Variant Ranger, or Court Wizard, or Grand Poohbah ... whatever. Each level is by itself a "flavor class" (heh!).
This system would allow maximum flexibility and all the prestige class hooks you could ever desire. It's also the "flavor class" (heh!) concept take to its extreme potential, negating any additional silly discussion necessary in this thread.
You can thank me later after you get a chance to think about my brilliant plan.
I'm thinking that instead of a single "flavor class" (heh!) level, the game system should be revised to allow a player to apply, say, 20 CDPs (Character Development Points) in any of the following areas: saves, attributes, skills, hitpoints, BAB, and feats/abilities.
The way it would work is this: when you gain a new character level, you retroactively declare which *previous* skills, feats, etc., will be considered "prerequisites" for the character level bonuses you're about to take now. Then you apply up to +2 CDPs in your save categories, up to +10 CDPs in hit points (each die size worth 2 CDPs, of course), up to +8 CDPs in skill points, up to +1 CDPs in BAB, *maybe* a +1 CDP in attributes, and any remainder CDPs in special class abilities like spellcasting or rogue sneaking. In that latter category would also fall feats and feat-like abilities of various value (CDP costs to be assigned later).
And furthermore, at each new level, you get to attach a new class title for yourself -- Elemental Mage, for example, or Variant Ranger, or Court Wizard, or Grand Poohbah ... whatever. Each level is by itself a "flavor class" (heh!).
This system would allow maximum flexibility and all the prestige class hooks you could ever desire. It's also the "flavor class" (heh!) concept take to its extreme potential, negating any additional silly discussion necessary in this thread.
You can thank me later after you get a chance to think about my brilliant plan.
Kweesenart
First Post
I really like a lot of the suggestions that you have been coming up with. Interestingly, no one has made mention of the "Expert" class from the DM's Guide.
While the Expert class works for craft/profession type-classes, I find that it is less beneficial for fighting-type classes. Being able to select class skills from the entire list is nice, as are the skill points per level. While BAB and saves are not great, they are low for a reason. Players are not going to want to play the expert, which makes sense as high-level experts are not the type to go adventuring. They are there to be consulted by the players.
I feel that the Expert class in the DMG does exactly what it is designed to do: create a flavor class while at the same time not encouraging players to take many levels in the class.
While the Expert class works for craft/profession type-classes, I find that it is less beneficial for fighting-type classes. Being able to select class skills from the entire list is nice, as are the skill points per level. While BAB and saves are not great, they are low for a reason. Players are not going to want to play the expert, which makes sense as high-level experts are not the type to go adventuring. They are there to be consulted by the players.
I feel that the Expert class in the DMG does exactly what it is designed to do: create a flavor class while at the same time not encouraging players to take many levels in the class.
Iron_Chef
First Post
I decided to do away with the combined +2 bonus to BAB/saves. All my page 1 flavor classes now have a +2 bonus to saves split between the three saves like most core and Prestige classes. Some of these are different than originally offered, such as the Legionnaire getting +1 Fort and +1 Will and the Gladiator getting +1 Fort and +1 Reflex.
Bugaboo sure seems to like trolling in our thread, LOL, or is he finally serious? LOL. I won't hold my breath.
1. DMs always "throw" (meaning "oppose") NPCs against players. Otherwise, without opposition (physical, verbal or societal), there isn't much fun to be had in an adventure game, is there?
2. The DM could just make up NPC classes and abilities on the fly, but I prefer having everything statted out and written down so I know exactly what each NPC is capable of, especially if I intend to reuse them or others like them in the future. And you can never tell when the PCs will decide to befriend or ally with an NPC. You need to know what that NPC can do then, since he'll be around a lot and sooner or later will be involved in a conflict. I just like to be prepared that way. Using these flavor classes as NPCs is also a good way to playtest them a bit in lieu of everyone taking one.
3. Those people who keep complaining about "why doesn't everybody take one, what are they giving up?" aren't reading this thread properly. We already determined that anyone can take one flavor class and it won't count against your multiclassing penalty; but that each one taken beyond the first would indeed count toward your multiclassing penalty. And since you can't keep flavor class levels even with core classes, you will end up getting an XP penalty sooner or later. Also, taking flavor classes reduces your progression in the core classes or whatever PrCs you may have. So these are all balancing factors.
4. The Expert class does not give you a special ability or permanent class skills.
Bugaboo sure seems to like trolling in our thread, LOL, or is he finally serious? LOL. I won't hold my breath.
1. DMs always "throw" (meaning "oppose") NPCs against players. Otherwise, without opposition (physical, verbal or societal), there isn't much fun to be had in an adventure game, is there?
2. The DM could just make up NPC classes and abilities on the fly, but I prefer having everything statted out and written down so I know exactly what each NPC is capable of, especially if I intend to reuse them or others like them in the future. And you can never tell when the PCs will decide to befriend or ally with an NPC. You need to know what that NPC can do then, since he'll be around a lot and sooner or later will be involved in a conflict. I just like to be prepared that way. Using these flavor classes as NPCs is also a good way to playtest them a bit in lieu of everyone taking one.
3. Those people who keep complaining about "why doesn't everybody take one, what are they giving up?" aren't reading this thread properly. We already determined that anyone can take one flavor class and it won't count against your multiclassing penalty; but that each one taken beyond the first would indeed count toward your multiclassing penalty. And since you can't keep flavor class levels even with core classes, you will end up getting an XP penalty sooner or later. Also, taking flavor classes reduces your progression in the core classes or whatever PrCs you may have. So these are all balancing factors.
4. The Expert class does not give you a special ability or permanent class skills.
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