Skill Boosts from Spells?

[RandomUsernamehmimo71]

My girlfriend and I are at constant odds about skill boosts from Magical spells... I tend to think that they are a horrible idea, and she can't imagine how a game could work without them.

I'll preface with the fact that I prefer a low level of magic flashiness, which would understandably make her way seem somewhat appealing.. But it’s so contrary to my nature, that I could use some external advice.


One reason I dislike them is that the idea of being the archetypical wizard is about doing things the others can't- Summoning fire, or teleporting from one area to another. The entire idea of making Wizards just a buff to existing skills makes my skin crawl.

Take, for instance, a 6th level rogue. As they are, they can gain invisibility at 2nd level of casting. That requires an investment of 4 levels, to gain the effect. But even at 1 or 2 level of Wizard, they could gain the 2nd level spell Cat's Grace, which would boost their stat. They become a better rogue.

Great, you say. There have been Thief/Wizards since the early days of gaming.
And I have no problem with that. What I object to is not their invisibility, which aides gameplay, but their buff, such as Cat's Grace. It makes the spells a wizard can cast into, at the core, time-limited feats.
And I really don't think that's the idea of Magic in gaming.

There are several spells at first level that give a boost to a skill. Jump, etc. If this spell list were extended, by creating more custom spells that did the same thing, taking a level of wizard would become a no-brainer for almost ANY thief, if they could get the training...
They don't learn to do new things; they just get a 1x/day boost to their skills....

For instance, Invisibility is a second level spell.. It makes the target un-seeable. There is no game reason why you couldn't create a first level spell that made you slightly translucent.. And gave a +5 to hide skills..
And to be honest, the Translucency isn't what I object to. It's the skill boost. It makes being a mage just another way of boosting that hide "Just a little bit more...."

Which defeats the entire purpose of having it be a magic class. They aren't doing magical things; they're using Magic as an jump to get higher skills.

Or, I'm wrong, and this is all just my own ignorant perceptions, and I have no reason to be upset.
Either way, I could use some advice on such spells....

Colin

[Edit- Spelling.]

 

[diaglo]

so how do you treat Charm Person?

it isn't a bump to diplo, bluff, etc...right?

or comp languages , it isn't a speak language bump?

 

[RandomUsernamehmimo71]

Perhaps in some ways, that is the case.

But the spell is not as simple as giving a boost.

Charm Person -
"This 1st level spell gives a +5 boost to Diplomacy and Bluff skills."

It has it's entire magical effect behind it. It's not just a static boost, but an entirely new effect- Domination, and the like.

That's what I'm pushing for. Entirely new effects. I don't want the Mage to out thieve the thieves, to out fight the fighters, and to our range the Rangers...
I want them to have their own niche. And I feel that stat boosters make that harder.

Colin

 

[Shallown]

I think it is more important in a way to make the magic... magical.

What I mean is yeah you can cast cat's grace and get a boost on many useful thief skills but at high levels the boost is small and at low levels magic should seem more powerful so the boost seems bigger. Which isn't what I meant in the first statement Here I go on a tangent second paragraph.

To what I originally said is that it should be magical. Magical comes from description not mechanics. No level of mechanics, to me, make something cool, magical, unique. If you cast cats grace then be descriptive. The shadoy figure of a cat settles across the target and fades. etc. Think about it a mage can use one spell to simulate 16 levels of advancement what it would take to make that dex +4 without magic. He simulated 2 levels, at least, training to improve that skill by the +2 stat bonus. To me that's magical. Well more than two levels considering how many skills and other things a +4 to a stat affects.

I think it is a matter of stepping back from the mechanics of a +4 stat boost to see that it really is magical in its effect. Magic is created by comparison. so you have an elf who shoots an arrow at someone. Then you have a mage with one magic missile. The arrow and bow had to be grown, harvested, made, practice with, launched and maybe hit. Magic missile hits with but a gesture and magic words. close to same mechanic (ie arrow does damage and could miss but could also crit and anyone can use it vs auto hits and gets better with level)

Its discription and comparison that put the magical back in magic.

Also the system is designed with it in mind as much as it is designed with cure spells in mind. Can function without either but makes things overly difficult for everyone.

later

 

[diaglo]

but that is the cost of using their whole allotment of spells for stat boosting.

you can still only take the set number of spells per 24 hours. even if you rest 8 hours.

1st lvl wizard with non specialized school and an int of 14 still only has 2 1st lvl spells for the whole 24 hours. which means he can boost himself twice. for a short duration. whereas the other classes have those skills the whole 24 hours long.

 

[diaglo]

not to mention....


wizards or sorc or cleric only get 2 skill pts + int + (possible human) per level.

not much really.

just watch out for too fast level progression.

and be stingy on magic items.

 

[RandomUsernamehmimo71]

1st lvl wizard with non specialized school and an int of 14 still only has 2 1st lvl spells for the whole 24 hours. which means he can boost himself twice. for a short duration. whereas the other classes have those skills the whole 24 hours long.

The Problem re-manifests if you play an overland campaign (Ie, not a dungeon or cave, but moving on the country); you may only have one encounter every 24 hours...

It makes the whole "Having the ability the rest of the time" idea kind of less viable.



I do agree that making the magic feel magical is important, but I think that the game should reflect that. There is only so much you can do; the players WILL hear the +5 to a skill in there, and realize that that is what it comes down to.

Personally, I like to downplay that.. I once gave a magical amulet which made the players Translucent, and harder to see.. But they refused to continue with the game until I gave them a stat adjustment for it.

They wanted a "It gives +10 to hide", not anything more mystical, like making you difficult to see, and giving enemies a chance to not see you, as long as you're not moving quickly... Or, even if I gave a mechanic, such as only a 50% chance of being spotted, it comes back to a boost to the stat.



I really don't care if a skill ends up with an effect similar to boosting a skill.. But I don't want them to end up being able to out do the rest of the party, nor do I want them to just look at it as an extra feat..



Fun fun!



Colin

 

[der_kluge]

Ah, the old rogue debate. This problem only exists because rogues are the masters of skills. Some wizard spells enhance skills, thus the apparent overlap.

When I think of "low magic", I would think that skill-enhancing stuff would be right in there. I think there is a class of gamer that prefers to avoid the overt magic stuff. That is, flying, flame-shielded, mirror-imaged, blurred wizards tossing down fireballs is, more often than not, something that leaves a bad taste in peoples' mouths.

That said, if you're striving for a low magic game, then having a wizard cast jump on a rogue, or using invisibility to sneak around. While invisibility might arguably be a bit "out there" in terms of a LoTR-style magic system, enhancing a skill is fairly mundane in my eyes. Plus, a wizard can only cast that stuff so many times, and then the rogue is just left with their own inate abilities.

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

My girlfriend and I are at constant odds about skill boosts from Magical spells... I tend to think that they are a horrible idea, and she can't imagine how a game could work without them.

One reason I dislike them is that being the archtypical wizard is about doing things the others can't. Summoning Fire, or teleporting from one area to another. The entire idea of making Mages just a buff to existing skills makes my skin crawl.

Then don't make the descriptive effect be all about being just a skill buff. A spell that gives you a bonus to Hide actually makes you hard to see/remember - you get a comensurate penalty to things like Intimidate or Diplomacy. Spells that give bonuses to Spot or Search have obvious magical effects on your eyes and other sensory organs.

Really skill magic, from a 'within the box' way of thinking is pretty much an expectation. The difference between getting the skill increased through hard work and simply being a mage is that magic is a consumable resource (scrolls, spells per day, potions), it takes time (casting time) to get the bonus, lasts only a short while (one skill roll or a couple of minutes) and is not entirely reliable (dispels, anti-magic, magic dead zones, wild magic, etc).

My suggestion is to make spell chains - limit the duration, the circumstances and the outright bonuses at various spell levels. This way a single level one spell will not outshine the Rogue/Expert with ranks, feats, etc.

Do something like this, at level 1 the spell gives a +5 bonus to a skill roll, but the circumstances are quite specific and there may even be a downside to it (penalties to other checks, vulnerabilities to special forms of attacks, etc). Then make another spell, perhaps level 1 but likely level 2 that only gives +1 skill bonus per level (to a maximum of +10) but has less situational restrictions. At level 3 or 4 make a "greater" or "improved" version fo the skill booster that simply ups the maximum bonus (much like how healing spells do it), other spells at this level keep the bonus fairly low but allow multiple targets for the effect (Eagle Eyes, Mass - gives 1 subject/level a +8 racial bonus to spot checks for instance). To keep with the "fantastic" nature of things we could go with slightly altered illusionary magic - creating an illusionary self thatautmoatically "aids" your skill checks (+2 to your roll). I can see summoning various minor spirits (1 HD outsiders with skill focus feat and a level of expert) doing much the same thing for summoners.

The idea is to not front load the concept of skill bonuses, but instead give setting and tone appropriate bonuses. They will hardly dominate the game, and deciding to go "wizard" to pick them up now has less of an attraction (since to really get the best spells you have to devote several levels of a non-optimal class to get them).

 

[RandomUsernamehmimo71]

This problem only exists because rogues are the masters of skills. Some wizard spells enhance skills, thus the apparent overlap.

When I think of "low magic", I would think that skill-enhancing stuff would be right in there

I think you have hit the nail exactly on the head, and Anubis is exactly right with regard to description.. I want a game which is low-magic, and LoTR derived in that way, but I still don't just want Wizard's to become buffed versions of an existing class.



The hard part comes from attempting to balance the wizard's ability so that they do not become more powerful than the rogue, etc, and overtake their domain.



I'll work with Anubis' advice there.. It would seem that the key to making it work is to balance by limiting the increase that's possible for each level, and the circumstances, as well as relaying on the players to understand how and why it works, and work to describe that carefully in the spell.



Do other people think Anubis' suggestion for growth seems reasonable? Multiple spells, which basically come down to +1 level? Is that where things should be, if this was teh route to take?



I really do appreciate the help... Enworld is an amazing resource.



Colin